Looking for advice on Norse teams

[sunnyside]

I'm a newer player who had just bought and assembled a Norse team before things got to chaotic at home to play in the league at my FLGS. So I'm cutting my teeth on mbbl via PBEM, which lets you have up to five teams.

I'm currently up to four with different playstyles for each, and I could use input on them and their associated strategies. If I'm really missing something I could start a fifth. If you have more wisdom than free time, I'd rather have your input on just one of them than get it for none, so don't feel you have to comment on all at once.

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The first team is "conventional." I probably started out with too few re-rolls, I'll be trying to add those.

Currently:
Thrower Dodge
Berzerker Mighty Blow (will miss next game)
Ulfwerener
Runner
Runner
7 linemen (none with skills though nearly all have at least 2 SPP)
2 TRR
3 FF
APO

record 2-1-0

Currently playing another Norse team that went for the big players. Some early armor breaks and injury rolls have me playing 8 vs 10 players, leaving me trying to hold onto my one TD lead in the second half.

Saving for: 3rd re-roll

Focusing on skilling up: Runners

Development plan:

Zerker MB, PO
(eventually) 2nd zerker Guard
Ulfwerener Block, guard
(eventually) 2nd Ulf Block, MB
(eventually) Snow Troll, Guard, MB
Runners dodge, side step
Thrower, Dodge, leader
(eventually) 2nd thrower sure hands, accurate, strong arm if possible

Linemen: Guard on doubles, Otherwise Kick, Dirty player, Tackle, Dauntless, in that order

Strategy: A cageish offense that usually eventually forgoes a proper cage to provide the assists needed to clear their players off mine. Throwing and handoffs are considered risky desperation plays.

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The second team is focused on experimenting with Ulfwerener. With their speed, strength and Frenzy I feel they could make great ball carriers/blitzers if they can be skilled up.

Currently
Ulfwerener
Ulfwerener
Berzerker (this berzerker will miss his next game as well)
Runner
Thrower Leader
6 linemen
2 TRR + leader RR
1 FF
APO

Development plan: The Ulfwerener (who are carrying the ball for now), will get block and break tackle. I debate with myself over the order. There are obviously some great reasons to go with block, but break tackle might help me score more with them which gives me wins and gives them SPPs.

At the heart of this is that I find many times just when a cage is about to collapse, a pair of str4 frenzy blocks could push an ulf to a spot where they could blow past the defensive line/pile on a 2+ dodge if they had break tackle. Similarily the Norse ability to open gaps in a defensive line/cage means that a break tackle Ulf may be able to pose a serious threat to the opposing teams ball carrier unless they are very well protected.

Runners: dodge, side step
Berzerkers: As the Ulfs are carrying the ball more, both zerkers will go for Guard, and

than maybe stand firm

Thrower Leader, Nerves of steel
2nd Thrower Nerves of steel, Accurate
With an offence centered on the Ulfwerener, the role of the throwers is to help protect them, and, if my advance is ground to a halt, nerves of steel lets them get the handoff from the ulf without any penalties, and than shoot it to a player a short distance downfield. (likely their target would have been flanking to provide an assist and would have been blitzed clear of TZs.)

Linemen: Kick, Dirty player, Tackle, Dauntless (Guard on doubles)

Saving for: I'm undecided between a second zerker(if I make enough) so I'll have one in my next game, more linemen, or save for a much needed re-roll.

record 1-0-0

Currently: Finishing up a game I'm losing spectacularily against pro elves. With some players out for the next game, and lack of other opponents at the time I challeneged a pro elf team nearly 600,000 gp ahead of me, and took wandering APOs for inducements, hoping to
get through without losses and build from there. It's been a rather educational experience, seeing just how rubbish block and frenzy are against side stepping blodgers.

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The third team is a "light" team. Trying to go without a snow troll indefinitly and relying much more on a re-roll supported passing game.

Currently:
Thrower Dodge
Thrower
Berzerker
Runner
Runner (just died, due to drunken APO)
6 linemen
4 re-rolls
1 FF
APO

Development plan:

Thrower Dodge, Nerves of Steel (able to act as a backup thrower or catcher)
Thrower Accurate, Sure hands, Strong arm if I can get it

Runners dodge, side step

Berzerkers: Guard, mighty blow
Ulfwerener: Block, Guard
Ulfwerener: Wrestle, break tackle (to take down blodging ball carriers)

Linemen: Kick, dirty player, dauntless, dauntless, Fend (obviously still guard on doubles)

Saving for: Replacement Runner

Focusing on developing: Second thrower to get accurate

record: 1-0-0

Currently: In second half against a nearly TR equivalent chaos pact team. Despite being under muscled vs his heavy hitters, things had been going handely my way, until the second half when, despite the re-rolls, I simply couldn't pick up the ball or roll anything but snake eyes and gave him a gift touchdown. However I outnumber them and have the ball, and so I hope to come out on top.

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Frustrated by the pyrric victories I'd been winning with my other teams due to squishy positionals, my fourth team is focused on starting out with expendable linemen backed by a smaller number of tougher positionals. Developing with a strong focus on getting guard early and abundantly, and hoping on the re-rolls to make up for blocks I'll have to throw without the block skill (until I can get it on the Ulfs and hopefully the troll).

I'm aware that Norse are simply out gunned in the muscle/guard depertment vs a number of other teams. However with handy use of Frenzy, dauntless, and some re-rolls I think my ability to disrupt formations may level the playing field.

Currently (starting setup)
Snow Troll
Ulf
Ulf
8 linemen
4 re-rolls

Saving for: Apothacary, than a Berzerker

Developing: Ulfwerener, though in this team they aren't intended to be ball carriers long term, I'm taking any opportunaty I can get to score with them for early development, especially since otherwise I'd be scoring with linemen.

Development plan:
Snow Troll: Guard, Mighty blow
Ulfwereners: Guard, Block
Berzerkers: Guard, stand firm or mighty blow
(eventually) runners, dodge, side step
thrower: Leader (Not sure if I'll bother with a second thrower or what I would do with them)

Linemen kick, dirty player, dauntless, tackle (guard on doubles)

Record (none yet)

Currently: Wailing on a chaos pact team that is also a 100TR new team. While they actually outmuscle me with three big guys, the advantage of squaring up my linemen with block against theirs without block has favored me heavily. Also with that number of re-rolls behind me, my linemen have been doing a respectable job of holding off the big guys while my strength players roll over his linemen. But the game is still young, and nuffle is fickle.

[Rubric]

Well I played one season at MBBL earlier this year. It was fun -- I've been thinking of joining up again.

I had only one Norse team, so I probably don't know as much you, but for what it's worth here are my comments:

Snow Troll: I don't really like the Snow Troll in any build. 140k for AV 8 with 2 negative traits and no regen is a bit ridiculous. He spends at least half the game on his back, in the dugout, or ignoring my instructions. I recently read that the smart thing to do is keep him off the defensive line -- I guess that might help, and maybe I will try it. Claws are nice (especially at MBBL where two out of three teams have AV 9), and I like the fact that he keeps his tackle zones when he misses the Wild Animal roll. But, for the few games I had him, I found the frustration and disappointment to be much higher than the benefits of having him. Had a similar experience outside of MBBL with another Norse team.

Ulfwereners: I love your idea of experimenting with them as ball carriers. I haven't used them much. As a beginner, I got into too much trouble with no-block frenzy attacks. Now that I know a bit more about the game, this might be an intersting tactic. However, I think their best use is on the wings as a crowd-push threat.

Runners: In general, my Norse teams have been equivalent to your "light" teams. That is, minimal ST+ guys, and heavy on passing opportunities. I like to put Catch on my runners right away (after Dodge though, usually). I don't really care for side step. I guess it might be good, but it's just fairly lame in a play-by-email context, and that's the only way I get to play.

Berserker: I had Stand Firm and Tackle on one of these guys, and there were some great games where he was able to tie down multiple opponents by himself. This was a beginner decision -- I'm sure the standard Guard or MB routes are better, but this was certainly a fun player.

Thrower: I like to go pure passer. Maybe Sure Hands, Accurate, and Safe Throw. I haven't really bothered with Leader, but then I like to start with 4 Team Rerolls anyway. I've been disappointed with Nerves of Steel. If you're in a situation where you need it, you've probably already screwed up.

Linemen: I tried Fend on a bunch of guys. My MBBL team eventually had enough to man the whole defensive line with Fend. There are two problems. First, the play-by-email tool they use does NOT provide a pop-up for Fend, like it does with Diving Tackle or Side Step, so some opponents tend to forget about it. (I mean, everyone is extremely nice when I remind them, but it's just kind of a pain.) The other problem is that it frequently takes away counter-blocks that you could have made on your own turn.

As an alternative, I was going to experiment with Pro as the standard lineman skill. Yes, I know experienced players will laugh at me for this, but there really aren't many good choices if you don't like Fend. Pro lets your 1-dice blocks improve from a 1 in 6 chance of turnover, to about 1 in 10. That's actually better than a 2-dice hit with no block, and makes up (slightly) for the lack of Guard. And, it gives the lineman some extra utility for the occasional dodge, pick up, or GFI.

[sunnyside]

Thanks for the feedback!

I recently read that the smart thing to do is keep him off the defensive line

I'll strongly second that advice. If it's elves without dauntless than maybe put him on the line. But against most teams they'll be able to swing with their own S5 guy with an assist or with an S4 or dauntless guy with two assists. In that case, since he lacks block, your troll is actually WORSE than a generic lineman at keeping their feet.

And once they hit the ground getting them up requires using up your blitz for the turn (plus a chance they stay down), or you have a 50/50 shot of them staying down.

Instead I keep the troll right behind the linemen. If my opponent follows up, than my troll gets to throw a block at the offending player. If they don't follow up, it's like the troll is giving all my linemen fend for free.

So far I've been pleased with that. Also I try to use the troll last or at least later in the turn, since they have a habit of causing turnovers, also by then I can often get them a 3d block. (I.e. when I recieve they go on the line, I'll make my blitz and all the other line blocks, maybe the pickup before using them, but since I'll have swatted down the other two players on the LOS the troll should get a 3d block, which is much more reliable and deadly.

I got into too much trouble with no-block frenzy attacks.

Ditto. Hence why my later teams have four re-rolls.

I don't really care for side step. I guess it might be good, but it's just fairly lame in a play-by-email context, and that's the only way I get to play.

For those who don't know mbbl has a thing where you set ahead of time where your guy will sidestep to, or you could give your opponent more detailed instructions based on what they do. It keeps the game speed up, but either option effectively nerfs sidestep a little, so that's a fair point.

Though diving catch seems entirely better than catch (the current ruleset has it give +1 to catches of accurate passes).

And I think I like being able to use sidelines too much to pass up sidestep. Also because it can set my opponent up for a crowd push, making it risky business for them to go after runners near sidelines if there is a zerker or Ulfwerener in the vicinity.

Berserker: I had Stand Firm and Tackle on one of these guys, and there were some great games where he was able to tie down multiple opponents by himself. This was a beginner decision -- I'm sure the standard Guard or MB routes are better, but this was certainly a fun player.

Honestly sometimes I'm not so sure. Blodgers are fairly standard issue, even for non elven teams. Pretty much only Khemri doesn't make use of them in mbbl. Of course the number of blodgers varies. However even if there are only one or two on a team, they seem to be the ones with the ball a lot of the time, or in the face of players like the berzerker. Giving the zerker tackle nearly doubles the chance they can get the opponent down.

Pro lets your 1-dice blocks improve from a 1 in 6 chance of turnover, to about 1 in 10. That's actually better than a 2-dice hit with no block, and makes up (slightly) for the lack of Guard. And, it gives the lineman some extra utility for the occasional dodge, pick up, or GFI.

The thing turning me off to pro is that except for interceptions you could use a TRR instead. Pro could save the TRR, however using pro means you usually have a 50/50 shot at having a turnover without even getting to try and re-roll it.

Though I suppose I could see taking it on one crazy lineman, who goes last in the turn throwing solo blocks at ogres and other things where it'd be nice if whatever they are up to worked, but I can shrug it off if it doesn't and keep my TRRs.

Alternatively if a lineman with dauntless got a second non doubles skill, than pro could be very useful, as the dauntless roll is one of the few you can fail without causing a turnover, and you could still use a TRR on the block anyway.

I just don't know about it otherwise.

[Rubric]

Instead I keep the troll right behind the linemen. If my opponent follows up, than my troll gets to throw a block at the offending player. If they don't follow up, it's like the troll is giving all my linemen fend for free.

Sounds interesting. I have no experience with this style of play though. I'm half tempted to try another troll with my next team -- I just think I might regret it.

Though diving catch seems entirely better than catch (the current ruleset has it give +1 to catches of accurate passes).

I don't see that. I thought a free reroll is always better than a +1. Also, Catch has much wider application -- passes, hand offs, interceptions, even bouncing balls I think. To me, that's more useful than the Diving Catcher's occasional opportunity to snag inaccurate passes. How many inaccurate passes will you even see? Even at AG 3, a developed Norse thrower will only miss 1 in 9, usually.

however using pro means you usually have a 50/50 shot at having a turnover without even getting to try and re-roll it.
[...]
Alternatively if a lineman with dauntless got a second non doubles skill, than pro could be very useful, as the dauntless roll is one of the few you can fail without causing a turnover, and you could still use a TRR on the block anyway.

Yeah, it's probably not great. But none of the choices really do much. Dauntless/Pro sounds good, especially for playing without the Snow Trolls.

[sunnyside]

Sounds interesting. I have no experience with this style of play though. I'm half tempted to try another troll with my next team -- I just think I might regret it.

Just so I don't forget stuff that occurs to me I've got notes around for things to remember with snow trolls. They can certainly be tricky to use, but rewarding. Use them last, avoid using them to blitz, don't figure they can take a hit, and instead of focusing on muscle players, go for a 3D block on a weaker one.

The snow troll was definitly bad for me at first. And still tricky to use, but I've definitly gotten good use out of them.

I also feel there is more to learn if anyone has advice.

. Catch has much wider application -- passes, hand offs, interceptions, even bouncing balls I think.

*checks book

Hey! You're right!

So catch certainly has a versatility angle.

I thought a free reroll is always better than a +1

There I'll disagree. The reason being, and correct me if I'm wrong, but you can never re-roll a re-rolled dice. I.e. you can't catch, use the catch skill, and than use TRR.

However you can still use a TRR if you've only gotten a +1 bonus. So your odds of failing catch are much lower.

For a 3+ pass and a no TZ catch, with catch you have a little under a 20% chance of disaster. However with diving catch (and a TRR) you about halve he chance of failure.

But more importantly when throwing a 2+ pass it drops the odds of failure from ~15% to under 5%, which makes it a risk more worth the taking vs a typical no handoff/pass offense.

Still, either way I'm not sure if it's worth giving them a skill like that except as maybe a 4th skill. Especially since I think clustering SPPs can be bad news for AV7 Norse, and those skills would tend to focus TDs on them.

Though being able to make a reliable handoff is an argument for catch.

Yeah, it's probably not great. But none of the choices really do much. Dauntless/Pro sounds good, especially for playing without the Snow Trolls.

Kick and dirty player sound good to you though, right? (only one of each though).

But yeah, I'm not to impressed on the whole. After maybe five linemen have a single non doubles skill, or a second skill on nearly any, it seems like TV bloat.

Though a bit of silver lining is that as you cycle through them, the odds of getting some with stat increases or Guard goes up, and those you could protect.

[Wanchor]

More than one Dirty Player is not a bad call on a Norse team with a decently 'deep bench'. I probably wouldn't take more than two, but I'm sure there's some nutter out there with an impossibly twisted strategy that involves five.

[Carnis]

Check there, its only 2 weeks old:

viewtopic.php?t=28963&start=0

[Rubric]

Just so I don't forget stuff that occurs to me I've got notes around for things to remember with snow trolls. They can certainly be tricky to use, but rewarding. Use them last, avoid using them to blitz, don't figure they can take a hit, and instead of focusing on muscle players, go for a 3D block on a weaker one.

Re/ the emphasized part: That's the big problem with keeping them OFF the line, though. You basically have to blitz (or block), otherwise you need 4+ on Wild Animal. And if your opponent keeps his distance, you will not get the chance to block (another reason why Fend linemen don't help much).

However you can still use a TRR if you've only gotten a +1 bonus. So your odds of failing catch are much lower.

Oh okay, I see your point.

Still, either way I'm not sure if it's worth giving them a skill like that except as maybe a 4th skill. Especially since I think clustering SPPs can be bad news for AV7 Norse, and those skills would tend to focus TDs on them.

Both Norse teams I have played used the Runners as catchers. I thought it was pretty effective at the time, but my W-L record was not that good. You're right about them hoarding SPP (until they die at least). I'm thinking if I start a new Norse team, I may start with no Thrower, just to break my passing habits. I think true "Runners" would still hog the SPP though.

Kick and dirty player sound good to you though, right? (only one of each though).

DP yes. Kick is debateable. I don't like it in play-by-email context, because you don't get to aim it based on where the offense sets up. (I realize that has nothing to do with Norse specifically.)

I also don't really understand how to use it. Are you supposed to kick deep or shallow? Not sure I like the idea of my AV 7 guys dashing bravely into the opponent's backfield.... I guess I would kick deep if I already have the lead, and just play normally from there. If I'm behind or tied, I suppose I could stack one side line, and then kick short.

Check there, its only 2 weeks old:

viewtopic.php?t=28963&start=0

That's a good thread, but is primarily about whether you should take +MA or +AV on a lineman. However, your in-depth article on page 4 is awesome! You should send to Plasmoid for his LRB6 play book.

[sunnyside]

@Wanchor

Hmm I hadn't thought about multiple dirty players. Maybe...

@Carnis

Nice guide. The only thing I disagree on is side step on runners. I'm new, but I've seen it used to great effect by elves.

But more than that, it seems to me that the only thing that some other team doesn't do better than Norse once they get enough block, is Frenzy based maneuvers, most notably crowd pushing.

Executing crowd pushes requires Norse players to wind up at or near the sideline. And a diagonal push requires a player to be right at the sideline, and usually I find I have to move in one of my guys occupy that spot.

Runners with sidestep can fill that role well. Also they could tempt opposing players into the danger zone. Blitzing a runner that is hugging the sidelines likely means leaving one or more players within two spaces of the edge.

Re/ the emphasized part: That's the big problem with keeping them OFF the line, though. You basically have to blitz (or block), otherwise you need 4+ on Wild Animal. And if your opponent keeps his distance, you will not get the chance to block (another reason why Fend linemen don't help much).

Against teams that have the higher strength positionals I've found (so far) that they move themselves up to the troll just fine. Otherwise they have to leave one or more of the LOS lineman free, and that threatens their cage.


Also even though I'd prefir not blitzing with the troll, if they haven't marked him I might just take the opportunity to blitz with them and frenzy right into the heart of their cage formation. So far I haven't actually been faced with that choice except against an elven team, and I blew the wild animal roll that time.

Though of course I would blitz with them if there wasn't a critical blitz needed. However I find blitzes are cruicial to Norse, and not something I'm willing to risk not getting 1/6th of the time and turning over 1/7th of the time.

Of course I'm still a little on the fence if you really want to start a Norse team with a snow troll. They really are a lot of hassel, and in those first games the Norse advantage means you can win without them. But I think eventually they're needed.

Both Norse teams I have played used the Runners as catchers. I thought it was pretty effective at the time, but my W-L record was not that good. You're right about them hoarding SPP (until they die at least). I'm thinking if I start a new Norse team, I may start with no Thrower, just to break my passing habits. I think true "Runners" would still hog the SPP though.

Norse are decent ball handlers in general though. We're paying to have AG3 on our zerkers and lineman and AG2 on the Ulfs, might as well use it to spread the SPPs around.

After getting dodge and sidestep I think I would put the runners on the frontlines, and try to score with other players. At that point the runners would be the best at keeping their feet after taking a block and thus the most survivable. They'd also tend to be the easiest players to replace, because of their ability to score.

DP yes. Kick is debateable. I don't like it in play-by-email context, because you don't get to aim it based on where the offense sets up. (I realize that has nothing to do with Norse specifically.)

Ok, this I have to follow up. I thought there would just be an extra e-mail exchange when Kick is used. You set up defense, they set up offense, than you position the ball, roll on the kickoff table, and decide if you want to use the ability, and send it off to them to start their turn.

If you don't have an extra e-mail, and have to position the ball and declare if you're going to halve the distance before they set up, than it isn't nearly so good.

I also don't really understand how to use it. Are you supposed to kick deep or shallow? Not sure I like the idea of my AV 7 guys dashing bravely into the opponent's backfield.... I guess I would kick deep if I already have the lead, and just play normally from there. If I'm behind or tied, I suppose I could stack one side line, and then kick short.

From what I've read here. Against bashy teams you kick it deep. It makes it harder for them to form their cage, can split their forces between those on the line and those by the ball, and makes them carry it further to score. Against agile/fast teams, you instead want to kick it close to the line. Allowing you to threaten their ball carrier right away, and they might feel they can't afford to not mark some of your players, which can be painful for them.

Also you have the option of being closer to one sideline or the other, to exploit asymetry in their setup. And, I think, opening up a world of asymetrical defensive formations you could try.