Linemen

[mattgslater]

This is inspired by a digression in a conversation about Humans. We were comparing Orc and Human linemen, and there was significant disagreement over whether MA, AV or a skill is better on essentially equally-priced players.

For this thread, I'm specifically asking about "true linemen" or players who meet the following criteria: 0-12+ Qty, ST3, AG3, 40k-60k. The teams in question are: Amazon, Chaos, Chaos Dwarf, Chaos Pact, Human, Norse, Nurgle, Orc, Skaven, Slann, Underworld Pact and Vampire.

Question 1:
Which of the above teams gets the best bargain on 0-16 players?

Question 2:
For any of the above teams you play, how do you use your true linemen? How many do you take? Are they markers/blockers, or ball-handlers? (Yes, of course, ST3/AG3 players are always both, but you know what I mean.) Does it vary by opponent? Do you build some linemen to do one thing and others to do another? If so, is there any crossover, and what do the rookies do? Do you specifically work to engineer skills on them, or does their role tend to improve them, or do they have to wait for MVPs? How does this evolve over the season? If you play multiple races, respond for each: obviously, a Beastman, an Orc and a Hobgoblin are all very different players in very different contexts.

[Rhyoth]

1) Norse : they have the only "ready-to-rumble" lineman !

2) if you want a relevant answer, you should first eliminate some team from your "contest" :
_ Vampires : Thralls are very specific to use since they have to "guide" their masters and stay alive as long as possible
_ Chaos Dwarves : Hobgobelin are not really handled like usual linemen since they're not meant to take hits.
_ Chaos : due to the lack of positionnals, beastmen must be specialized to fit unusual roles (for linemen)
_ Gobelin from Underworld team do not even fit your own criteras (!)

more to come later ...

[MeatLoafX]

What an incredibly tough question.

Question 1:
My vote: Chaos Pact - 50K Linemen

Question 2:
Though it's tough to argue with starting skills on some lineman (Amazons, Norse especially), I chose the Chaos Pact because the entire team is primarily composed of "linemen". They are the heart and soul of the Pact. No, they don't start with any skills - but the beauty is that you can give them almost anything. No other team has the ability to morph their linemen into anything they want. These linemen turn into ball handlers, retreivers, blitzers, hitters, passers, everything! I understand that they will be more expensive in the long run if you put block on them compared to a Norse lineman for example, but these guys have the ability to turn into anything - and you must mold them to fit your team and choose skills wisely or you'll have zero success with them. I can't think of another team where the linemen are so incredibly vital to the overall health and strategy of a team (after all, you may be fielding 7 to 9 of them at all times).

It's hard to evaluate the Marauders when you are asking about "bargains". After all, when you compare starting skills, they have none and start out the same price as some that do. But with the stat-line of 6/3/3/8, they are good, solid pieces with an armor value that makes them last longer, potentially. And when you are able to add anything you want to them - block, guard, passing skills, and those tasty, tasty mutations, I think they qualify as a "bargain".

[mattgslater]

2) if you want a relevant answer, you should first eliminate some team from your "contest"

Actually, that's part of the exercise. I know that these guys play on teams that use them differently for many reasons. Part of the plan is to figure out precisely how. For example, I tend to use Orc Linemen and Hobgoblins in a very similar way: my one and only Orc lineman is a backup Blitzer/Thrower, while my Hobgoblins tend to form my safeties and retrievers, plus backups at other off-the-line spots. So I think we'll find that these "special case" players still mostly break down into the same general categories by usage as the more "ordinary" linemen, with one of those categories being "multipurpose" like Beastmen and Marauders.

[bjorn9486]

Going to mirror what MeatLoafX said with Chaos Pact. The plethora of skills available to them is daunting.

[mattgslater]

I can't decide between Amazons and Marauders in terms of bargains. I think the best player is the Beastman, but he's also the worst deal, followed closely by the Orc, who has a heck of a time skilling up; even Rotters have it better, as they are cheap and tend to be numerous on starting teams, so they get some shots at development. Contextually, the Marauder and Hobgoblin are the most important basic players on the teams listed. I guess you could make an argument for Beastmen too, because there are so few positionals, but the BM doesn't really do anything that a CW can't do.

Of those teams, I play Chaos, Chaos Dwarfs, Humans, Norse and Orcs.

Chaos: I only use Beastmen on the line against bashy teams: mostly, they're blitzers and skill players, but I kind of think that BMs and CWs are positionally (if not tactically) interchangeable. I like to get some guys with Extra Arms and one Guard Beastman early, and eventually build a couple Block/Tackle/MB hunters. Ultimately I like to have 8 Beastmen.

Chaos Dwarfs: I start 6 Hobgoblins, but at some point I settle on 5. Usually I field 2-3 on defense and 4 on offense. Hobgoblins are safeties and backup flankers on defense, and retrievers and cage-fronts on offense. The first Hobgoblin is my returner, getting Sure Hands first, the rest get Block or Wrestle. The first Block Hob to go up again gets Kick. #4 or #5 might get Dirty Player.

Humans: I start 4-5 Linemen, and that's where I stay. One becomes a kicker, three go for Wrestle and rotate on the line with a Blitzer, and one goes for Dirty Player and takes the kicker's spot against speed teams.

Norse: I start 6-8, but work my way down to 5 as I get my positionals. One gets Tackle, then Kick; the others all get Fend, and rotate on the line. The fifth one may get Dirty Player.

Orc: I start 0-1 and end up with 1. He goes for Wrestle and is a career backup safety/flanker/noseguard. Kind of reminds me of when I was a kid and read all the L. Frank Baum books. There was this story where Dorothy went on an expedition and took a platoon of soldiers with her from the Emerald City: 8 generals, 7 colonels, 6 majors... all the way down to just the one private who did all the work. Dey wuz eevun werrin' Green!

[Grumbledook]

Surely it will depend on the length of the league and other teams in it, if we assume that there is a fair mix of all teams for the sake of fairness it makes things easier. Also why not put in Zombies as they are often said to be amongst the best linemen. Though Longbeards don't really count as lineman in the usual sense as they are essentially the same as chaos dwarfs.

Marauders are great but not in shortish leagues where they don't have time to get skills.
Zombies have decent armour, regeneration and are cheap if not sometimes free!
Norse are great for starting with block for short term but long term their low armour lets them down.
Amazons great early on with the lack of tackle around, not so much later.
Orcs high armour, not many coaches use them though as they cheat and get goblins.
Humans fairly versatile but lack any specific advantage over the alternatives.

Now I really see Lineman as the guys who tie up opposing players, get in the way, screen team mates off etc. From that point of view Zombies work best both long and short term as they are giving up the least TV and survive a long time on the whole. Orcs also do a good job with their high armour, the lack of speed on these two players isn't a problem as the team tactics are usually a slow cage anyway. Orcs have the extra advantage over Zombies for being a bit quicker and are better at ball handling if you get desparate, though that isn't really a main consideration for what I personally consider as a good deal for a Lineman.

Any player costing over 50k isn't really what I would put as a standard grunt Lineman.

[mattgslater]

My main knocks on Zombies are that you need an MVP to get them that first skill, and that they don't do well if they have to fill in for positionals. ST3/AG3 linos can credibly fill in for positionals if you allow for some drop-off: Zombies are pure blockers, like 2nd-rate Dwarfs.

[Tim]

Independent from their teamlist i would say the Orc Lineman is the best overall, as his AV9 makes a big difference for doing his main job ... getting beaten up, but staying on the field.

Norse Linemen have the edge on a fresh team, but on developed teams they break too easily. Marauders and Beastmen are those with the best longterm potential due to superior skill choice.

Longbeards are the only one i'd consider better than the Orc lineman, but they're not really linemen ...

[mattgslater]

Follow-up question: do you agree with this statement?

Unless AV is exactly 7, it's generally better to take +MA over +AV if you don't know who the player is or how he's to be used.

I guess, I'm trying to get to "lineman in a vacuum" and I don't know if that's a good approach. This gives me a cool idea for a simplified "pub league" variant: 750kgp, basic players only, all TRRs 60k, no inducements, treat improvement rolls of 11-12 as 10. As a mental exercise, what team race would you take? 750k ÷ 11 < 70k, so no Dwarfs or D/H/W Elves. None of the 3 expansion teams, as all of them have comp-value linemen or multiple basic positions. Similarly, if you'd answer "Undead" tell if you'd still be on board if it had to be all Skels or all Zs.

[Smeborg]

As a practical experiment to demonstrate the superior worth of Hobgoblins, I put out an all-Hobgoblin team, The Grass Eaters, in our open league. They run with a squad of 15 (to allow Rashnak to be induced), and 4 Re-rolls. Their record is decent: 6 wins, 8 draws, 2 losses. They perform well when they get inducements (Wizard, Babes, Rashnak), which of course is often, as their underlying TV is similar to Halflings. They like any stat increases (MA, ST, AG). There is quite a lot of Claw in our league - they are immune to it. However, they have become quite drawish, especially against bash teams (they go 1-0 or 2-1 up, but cannot keep out the second half onslaught).

Wrestle works well for this team (they have 6 Wrestlers). If they roll a doubles as first skill, they get Guard (to be followed by Block). If they get a stat increase as their first skill, they will also get Block (because they will either be Runners or Receivers). This leads to a nice judicious spread of Wrestle and Block on the team, according to role, which is more focussed than on many starting teams.

I put this team out a a semi-joke side to provide cuddly opponents for newbies joining our league mid-season. But they are far from a joke - they are a regular side. They help to sharpen my play, as on each drive you have to be very focussed, because you know you will lose about a player a turn to the dugout (plus stuns).

[Jural]

Thralls I would like to count differently, as they have the added benefit of allowing your vampires to actually be effective! They are well worth their 40k.

If I wasn't going thralls, I think Norse are the best at low TV and in tournaments, but AMazons are superior as the develop- they have the best 1 skill combo in the game, whereas Norse lineman are peaked at one advance (value-wise.)

The only competition probably comes from the hobgoblin (excellent value and low AV doesn't hurt with all the protection) or Slann (60k, but can be developed as just nasty players.) Chaos Pact are great lineman, but at 70k with one skill they really pale side by side with other lineman. Maybe by the third advance, but even then they sit at 110k,and that's effective, not efficient.

[Cam Jessup]

I think I would have to cast my vote for the Orc Lineman. If we were to go down Matt's avenue of a lineman only league the Orc's high armour, low cost would more than compensate for a slight lack of speed particularly since most of their rivals are still only MA 6.
I closely followed a thread a while back discussing an alternative Orc team that made use of Blitzers, Throwers, Goblins and Lineman (think it was by Plasmoid), the success this team inspired me to create my own team using the same principles. The lineman on the team act as a utility player and I found that the four lineman I had in my starting team were acting as back up throwers and scorers and as my primary blockers. Due to the cheapness of the lineman I was able to start out with 4 rerolls and their relatively effective starting stat block let me call the shots on how to use those rerolls a lot more effectively (proactive rather than reactive) this meant I was able to skill them quite quickly by getting a quick completion or hand off for a score, their high armour also allowed me to throw non-essential one out blocks at the end of my turns without (much) fear if a skull was rolled.

[Ullis]

A qood quality for a lineman is that you don't either get or even need to get attached to them unless they get some super special skill combination by accident (both in rolling doubles and upgrades and getting the SPP's in the first place). That means that they're not essential to the main defensive or offensive functions of the team. In a game this is shown by the fact that you don't have any problems choosing whom to put on the los or picking who gets to tie up the opposing minotaur.

In this sense zombies are excellent. It's very hard to get attached to them because they're so useless for anything other than getting punched in the face. Linerats are like this too. Because the rest of the team is so fragile, you really cannot afford to waste any pity on them. Because of their high move they also fill a supporting role very well in offence. In defence they really ought to have one more point of AV to be really useful. The problem with linerats is that if one of them gets some special skills, then it's still impossible to keep them alive.

Slann linemen also fill this role. I find it hard to get attached to them but they're still able to leap into a cage if I need them to! And they have AV8 so they have some staying power. On top of that they're quite cheap at 60k.

Hmm, I guess I have to choose slann linemen as the best from all that.

[besters]

I am surpised there has been little support for the Amazon linewomen, at 6 3 3 7 + Dodge I think they are better than the Human equivalent, Dodge more than making up for the AV reduction.

One standard upgrade and they equate to a blitzer.

I would certainly take them in the 750 gp all lineman league mentioned, would be hard to beat.