Human Guide

[mattgslater]

To continue on the Ogre/Troll debate from the perspective of the Human team (so as to tie back in rather than try to kill a pretty cool digression), here are my reasons for thinking the Ogre is a better player than the Troll and a comparable bargain.

1) (Regeneration : Thick Skull) ~ (Bonehead : Really Stupid). So the on-pitch upside of a Troll is a wash for its negatrait.

2) MA5 vs 4 makes a huge difference if you have this guy near midfield. It's especially a big deal early-on (for handling ST2 Blodgers before you get Tackle or Wrestle) and late in development, after you've given him Break Tackle.

3) MA5 and AG2 with no Wild Animal and both Throwers and Catchers makes the Ogre the single easiest big guy to improve. Use him on the rear of the cage, and he'll likely get unmarked: you don't have to reveal your intention to score with him until you are ready to do it. Even better, you've got the personnel to run up a lead in case it fails. With a Troll, you have to block/MVP your way into a skill.

Both are mediocre bargains. The Ogre is a good big guy, but you pay for TTM and can't use it. The Troll is a lame big guy, but at least he's cheap, and he gets the job done up front. One argument in favor of a Troll is that the Orc team can better afford to put their lame big guy up front where his lameness isn't so apparent: it's all the same when he's punching your face, except that the two guys next to the Troll are too big to knock off of him and hit him back, while the two guys next to the Ogre are just guys.

Oh, and I have no such opinion on LRB4. In older (bashier) rulesets, Regenerate is a bigger deal than it is now for reasons that have already been mentioned.

[Cam Jessup]

Joe,

Enjoyed the article a lot, just one point I would make, you have mentioned rejecting +ma on an ogre. I am always keen to keep my big guys in the game and if an ogre has break tackle in particular then getting +ma is gravy on top as he can redeploy quite quickly if tied up and with ma: 6 he can almost keep pace with a cage.

[Carnis]

About the original guide. It's a nice writeup, some things I feel slightly differently though. You are probably the more experienced human coach though..

1.1) Linemen

While I think you nailed them pretty much as far as their ingame role goes, I feel you may overfavour block as a skillpick over wrestle. While it's true block is nicer for casualties (50% more vs players without block), it isn't as significant a boost as one would think. Both wrestle & block avoid turnovers, and a lot of players tool up for block first skill. After the league develops wrestle thus becomes significantly more efficient at getting knockdowns (albeit, no armor rolls). This is especially important against sidestep&stand firm players (wrestling bothdown gets you out of trouble, blocking gets you a hit on the following turn), or when receiving blocks from blocking players. I don't have any real playtest data to confirm it, but the extra space on the field from mass-wrestle linemen should always favour the faster team. Remember, humans are MA6-8 i.e. on par with the fastest elves (barring skaven/woodies) as far as MA goes. Personally, I'd pick wrestle as first/second skill for all AG3-linemen who do not a) roll doubles & take guard b) have S or M access (beastmen, marauders etc) c) have dodge access (amazons). The amount of space on the pitch is significantly increased if you're fielding 3-5 wrestlers in each lineup. Wrestle is also an "easy" way to get your linemen out of trouble, even with 1die you're looking at 2+ against a non sidestepper and 4+ against a ss/sf player to get the opponent either KDd or wrestled down.

1.2) Linemen

You barely mentioned fouling. A single dirty player lineman has helped my sides (from skaven to nurgle) get rid of annoying blodge sidestepping elves, Block/mb/piling on beastmen, block/guard/standfirming treemen, ogres, the lot.. It isn't very reliable (unless you got bribes, when it becomes a real killer, especially if you don't lose your bribe early on), but since you're tooling up a killer blitzer, you should support it with a DP liner. Also, wrestling linemen produce a lot of prone players with no armor check (as well as opponents piling on produce some prone players), DP gives you a good opportunity to put the hurt in. Especially on the 2nd half you can foul at will as a knockout is just as good as an ejection is, but plenty more likely. This requires you to have some pitch and clock-control, of course.

2) Blitzers

I'd highly recommend MB as the default 2nd skill (and 1st on the "killer"). Tackle is necessary and SF is nice, but MB spread around your block/guards should be the default skill. Ofc get some tackle & SF in the mix as you described.

Doubles:
You say taking dodge is not always the best choice because you only field 1-2 dodges in a human team. You may be right, but it also takes some tackle-pressure of your AV7 catchers and combines nicely with block/guard/sf. A human team can easily be fielding 3-6 dodges on the field & I feel that's enough most of the time to negate most of the threat from tackle. Remember, dodge is also a serious double choice for a running thrower, and all your catchers start with it.

3) Catchers

I'd probably build em all with block/SS or SS/block (for 1ttd).. Get the wrestle on players who don't normally handle bashing or ballcarrying duties. This way about 3rd of your on-pitch players should be tooled with wrestle (liners), the rest with block (ogre, runners, blitzers, thrower).

4) Throwers

I believe most people probably play a mixed-role thrower rather than your extreme throwers:

Block - Accurate - Fend (Dodge doubles).

Block+SH to cancel strip ballers, dodge for the same reason. Fend to get you out of TZs after being blitzed & Accurate for easy SPP qps and better odds at succeeding in defensive longpasses/longbombs.

[DoubleSkulls]

My feeling so far is more than about 4 wrestle on the pitch might be about the limit. The real problem (unless you stack wrestle with block) is going prone in your own turn on a both down result you don't want to reroll - and leaving gaps in your own defensive layers. So you could give all the linemen wrestle if you don't want to give it anywhere else. However if you are taking wrestle on catchers then you might want to mix up block too.

Wrestle on catchers I'd take to develop them as blitzers - with Dauntless, Strip Ball etc - not when developing as a runner or receiver. Its a better skill for freeing the ball than Block. This does sort of imply fielding more than a couple or having a catcher build for kicking drives and another for receiving drives.

With LRB6 I'd have thought Diving Catch was a great choice on the catchers for a receiver build. 2+ rerollable catches make a noticeable improvement to the reliability of the short passing game.

[mattgslater]

I really like having one Wrestler early as a substitute Tackler. After that, I like taking Wrestle as a later selection on linemen. So maybe #2 gets Wrestle as a first skill, but the next lino to take Wrestle is #4, say.

[Carnis]

My feeling so far is more than about 4 wrestle on the pitch might be about the limit. The real problem (unless you stack wrestle with block) is going prone in your own turn on a both down result you don't want to reroll - and leaving gaps in your own defensive layers.

This leaves gaps in your opponents layer too, but its your turn so you've got time to adjust. And if you're standing next to a block-fielding player then you are in no better shape as far as covering the pitch goes. If it's an end of turn 1die block, then it might be worth not taking it. That's the only real downfall. Still, I feel low AG teams (<4), with high MA mainly just benefit from these "holes" (independent on whose turn the wrestle skill is activated). They won't be able to easily dodge through otherwise.

I'm building a 6 wrestle skaven side, we'll see how it goes..

[Smeborg]

With LRB6 I'd have thought Diving Catch was a great choice on the catchers for a receiver build. 2+ rerollable catches make a noticeable improvement to the reliability of the short passing game.

I can confirm from actual league play that Diving Catch is an outstanding first skill on Human Catchers. It has a natural companion doubles skill, too: Nerves of Steel. I have to say that I like Human Catchers in general - their raw speed is often a game winner.

The Human team needs Wrestle, IMO. Wrestle/Fend is an outstanding skill combination for Linemen on the defensive line of scrimmage for almost any non-AG team. Wrestle/Dauntless would seem to be a great starting combination on defensive Human Catchers. The SNAFU in terms of Human team development is that Guard is a good doubles pick for Linos - obviously it combines much better with Block than with Wrestle.

With up to 10 or 11 positional players, and all skills available except mutations, the Humies always seem to have more tempting skill development paths than players available to fill them! After you have experimented a bit to find out what works, you need to become very focussed.

[Nestyr]

Hey Joe,

Have you polished this up yet? My favourite tactics guide to date...

Cheers,


Nestyr

[Bathoz]

Necromancy! (Because it's a good, hidden guide. And why start a new thread?)

Anyway, I've been toying with taking a human team into one of the cyanide leagues I play. These are 9-14 game leagues with multiple seasons. So, in theory, a long term objective. My background is mostly playing elves - and I developed my overriding defensive ethos playing dark elves. This has served me well across most teams.

I've been practicing with the humans in the various TV matching open leagues that the online game provides, and I've run into one major problem. At the level of development I've reached (one skill across many, two one or two), I just don't know what to do when out bashed.

I can't hit back reliably, as the level of block has gone up, so the 2d against block hit and hope is a total loser instead of mostly being a loser. I also don't have enough guard to offset this. So what I seem to be reverting to, is playing like slightly stupid elves. Making the safe moves, then going about dodging agi 3 players back. If one fails (as they do) then I'm in an even worse position the next turn. It's been very, very uphill.

Problems in my own game I've spotted - I probably isolate players too much. I've seen advice (in this thread) about giving every man a buddy. But sometimes defenses (or offenses) are stretched, and you've got to do something. My inability to roll stat ups probably hurts. As does the nature of the cyanide TV matching league (very bash heavy).

Is there any advice on how to better deal with defensive position as a team like humans?

PS. One side effect of playing humans is that it has made me much more accepting of a 3+ with reroll chance when playing my High Elves. Before I saw them as the devil, now I see them as more risky, but certainly acceptable.

[TheDoc]

Hi,

Just read your post about Humans and defensive woes. I will tell you it doesn't get any easier. At high TV you will struggle against any other high TV as you are not as specialised to one type of play. Elves will quite happily pass over you, Dwarves will bash you with st3 and guard, Skaven will motor past you will GR, you get the idea.

Human defense is about trying to get your opponent to move out of that comfort zone whilst still being able to recover. If you play vs bash you have to try and keep your opponent 1 square away at least. This will allow you to move at will and go around them to attack the ball carrier. Slow cages down by only letting them move 1 space per turn. Play very much like elves. You ain't going to win the fist fight so don't enter it.

Against elves, skaven, etc. Aim for the AV 7 players and take them out. Any player off the pitch is one less that can score. Mighty blow, piling on, guard for your blitzers makes them powerhouses. Keep on top of them and pressurise the ball. Don't over commit though! If you do they will just move around you. You need players in the back field to cope with Wardancers and GRs.

I find my biggest issue is with equally adaptable teams... necro, Lizards, undead, amazons, norse. They have similar strengths to you and fewer weaknesses than the extreme races. Here you may struggle. Lizards are hard to play against as you have 7 st4+ bruisers hitting you each turn and 4 small really fast gits running past you.

In short, aim to target the battles you can win hit the weak links in your opponents strategy. If they are strong they are slow, so give them the run around. If they are weak but fast HIT THEM! Use your players with the relevant skills to do the required damage whether it is dodging and weaving or smashing them about. You must bring the coach out of his/her usual tactics and then you can win.

Ade

p.s. don't be afraid to try the ridiculous with humans it sometimes works and your opponents will be so shocked they won't be able to come back from it.

[Bathoz]

I suspect I'm starting to get a hand on why I get so beaten up as humans.

I'm used to seeing a gap, as whatever type of elves I'm playing, and going relatively gung ho to exploit it, knowing that (injuries permitting), I'll be able to dodge out and reposition if it fails. When I do the same with humans, the repositioning doesn't work, and I end up taking a long beating while they get a relatively easy TD.

Maybe I just need to work on not going that aggressive on defense.

[PercyTheTroll]

I think Humans suit a risk averse coach. I guess this is good advice for all teams but specifically for Humans I'd say don't roll too many dice (and I like to build Humans with a passing game ).

Pick your blocks and avoid dodges except with your catchers.

On defense you want to use your LoS players (Ogre and Linos) to stall their cage with Blitzers roving round looking for a way in. Catchers should be your deep defenders because with MA8 they can keep up with almost any potential receiver.

[bouncergriim]

I think Humans suit a risk averse coach. I guess this is good advice for all teams but specifically for Humans I'd say don't roll too many dice (and I like to build Humans with a passing game ).

Pick your blocks and avoid dodges except with your catchers.

On defense you want to use your LoS players (Ogre and Linos) to stall their cage with Blitzers roving round looking for a way in. Catchers should be your deep defenders because with MA8 they can keep up with almost any potential receiver.

Actually humans really shine when you are willing to take risks. Yeah, don't start with risk, do all the simple stuff first, but then play risky.

On of my tactics vs lizardmen was this. Kill skinks (well I could only KO them, but still got em off the pitch). Then he would scrum up around the ball but leave me a dodge into the space with the ball (sure 3 TZ and a tackler). But I would go for the ball, more often than not fail, but I fall on the ball and it bounces to a more opportune place.

I just took some rookie humans to the championship game in a league of 8 (5 teams were returners with at least 1500k tv). My regular season record was 4 wins, 4 ties, 2 losses. The games I won were always 1td more affairs, but that is all that was needed.

If you play too conservatively with humans, you will never really succeed, if you play risky all the time you will fail spectaculary, but if you balance your risk and take it whre appropriate you can do some amazing feats and shock your opponent.

Right now my favorite player is my blitzer with frenzy and mighty blow (just got piling on after winning the championship). He killed 2 elves in the semifinal and knocked down a krox in the final to get the ball and then score one turn later.

The entire season I have rolled nothing but regular skills and have been able to be competitive. The lizard team was undefeated going into the championship and had scored at least 2 TDs every game averaging more like 4 per game.

One other piece of human advice is foul often, you need the numbers advantage. Also keep at least a couple of guys in reserves (like a 13man roster or so). Right now I am running a little fat (15man) but I foul with impunity and don't worry if a guy gets kicked out or killed.

That is my other piece of advice, don't ever just develope one player as a super specific specialist, make them in pairs if possible. That way if something bad happens to one you have the other ready to fill those shoes. Remember humans are expendible and play as such, just watch your blitzers, they are expensive to replace.

[bbdave522]

Just to echo a bit of what's been said here, I have 2 broad but critical bits of advice when playing Humans (and it'll make you into a better coach overall, I think).

First, as was said in the first post of this thread, Humans are the jack of all trades. That means more than just that you can do anything, you have to actually be prepared and able to execute any strategy the game requires. Never get stuck in a mindset that Humans play to their opponent's overt weaknesses (like Elves at bashers and like bashers at Elves). Humans have to know every playstyle, every tactic, from the 2-1 grind to the agility shootout to the OTS, and have to be able to shift from one to the other when necessary. Play your running game down the pitch, but be prepared to move into a passing game or to swiftly switch sides of the pitch if things start to go wrong. That's the major strength of Humans; they never have to get locked into a particular tactic, because just as no one suits them perfectly, all suit them just enough. Always be on your toes, looking for the opportunity. Odds are if you try to cage it'll get broken; that doesn't mean don't cage, necessarily, it means be ready to adapt

The second piece of advice builds off the first, and off of Humans' huge advantage of unpredictability. Long shots work a lot more often than you think. Play smart, but don't just follow whatever the odds tell you to do, or you'll lose, because your opponent will know what you're going to do every time (and your low risk plays are a lot riskier than other teams' low risk plays). Humans aren't as good at reliable plays, but they're versatile enough to pull off plays that seem crazy on the surface (and versatile enough to cope with failing those plays). High risk, high reward is the way to go with Humans. If you get a shot at the ballcarrier, however poor a shot, take it. If you keep doing that, you'll succeed eventually, and even your failures can help set your opponent a little off-balance. If you see a shot for a long pass and score, take it (assuming you don't have an easy shot otherwise, no need to throw the ball away if you can run it down the pitch easily. You usually can't, though). If you have a chance to push a player onto the ball, or jump on it yourself, 3/4 times you should take it. Anything that doesn't follow what your opponent expects is in your favor. The best case scenario is that he starts trying to defend against the long shot plays; once he does that he saps his strength away from the core of his strategy and gives you just enough of an edge to make up for your disadvantage there. Worst case, you just keep trying to do the impossible until it works. And it will work, eventually; anyone plagued by double skulls reroll double skulls can attest to the deception of probabilities and the confidence they bestow.

[Smeborg]

With LRB6 I'd have thought Diving Catch was a great choice on the catchers for a receiver build. 2+ rerollable catches make a noticeable improvement to the reliability of the short passing game.

I can confirm that this works very well in practice. Diving Catch seems best as the very first skill-up, with Nerves of Steel as the companion double. With Accurate on the Throwers, this allows you to make "Elven" passes (2+ to 2+, both with in-build re-rolls).

All the best.