Playing Norse runners aggressively?

[sunnyside]

The Norse runner is a bit of an odd positional in that they're a higher MA agility positional...with Dauntless.

Most advice for them seems to focus on the agility positional portion of things. Running around on defense, sometimes being a catcher on offense, and so on.

However with blodge they're possibly the hardest Norse positional to take down and fairly easy to skill up for a replacement, so I'm starting to think of developing them more towards getting in some big guys face, the sort of spot where a lineman would just be trying to keep standing until they wind up in the dugout. Except with blodge, dauntless, and some TRRs, the runner might actually be able to get the upper hand.

Their agility and MA could still be useful in that the could get out of there to serve some other purpose on the pitch on a moments notice.

So first there is jsut the basic philosphy of how to use them. After that is technique and skills.

Side step still seems useful. Fend would be good in negating piling on or Frenzy, but I don't expect to see those soon.

However Pro seems very usefull for going on the offensive. Dauntless is one of the few rolls you can blow without causing a turnover. So, if I understand correctly, you could use pro on the dauntless roll, and than if needed us a TRR on the actual block later if needed.

Jump up could also be nice as it lets you turn the tables sooner without having to use up the precious blitz for the turn. However their habit of not getting up when they get knocked down makes its effectiveness a bit more questionable.

[DoubleSkulls]

Dauntless is one of the few rolls you can blow without causing a turnover. So, if I understand correctly, you could use pro on the dauntless roll, and than if needed us a TRR on the actual block later if needed.

Correct, and of course if you don't need Pro for the Dauntless roll you can always use it to try and reroll pushes.

However I'd have thought with the Snow Troll and Ulfs you probably had enough strength against most teams and that against massed strength you really want dauntless in the thick of the action. Runners, because of their speed as much as AG access, are better around the periphery. So although Dauntless is useful I'd probably consider it more for either Linemen or Berserkers.

[purdindas]

I can appreciate what you want to do with the runner here but bear in mind his cost. You don't want him getting flattened by a big guy. Also IMO he's just far to useful to waste on that task. Use a cheapo lineman instead. His primary function is a runner i.e someone who picks up the ball and runs with it. Give him blodge and with MA 7 he's a perfect ball carrier. Dauntless is only really there incase you need to blitz away from someone with higher strength.

[sunnyside]

However I'd have thought with the Snow Troll and Ulfs you probably had enough strength against most teams

Besides many teams having more than three strength positionals, I think I'd rather have some dauntless player going after their stronger guys while my strength positionals lay into their other players.

Obviously if you could swap skills between players I'd rather have dauntless on the linemen. But it's on the runner and costs more to put on linemen.

So although Dauntless is useful I'd probably consider it more for either Linemen or Berserkers.

To be clear the reason for all this is that they start with dauntless. If they didn't I'm pretty confident they'd rarely if ever be given the skill. It's just generally it amounts to 20K of bloat on them. However, even if you're paying for a skill you only use once ever few games the runner is still good, and I think that's how they typically are played and how purdindas uses them.

[mattgslater]

You'd think access to Dodge would also help in this capacity, as Big Guys generally have a hard time dealing with Dodge players. But they die so fast that you may never get a good sample.

[Da_Great_MC]

Dodge and Sidestep are the logical first two skills. They support both roles. When you reach third skill and you've still not rolled a double or stat increase, this discussion enters play.

[sunnyside]

Wouldn't this also apply to doubles? Guard doesn't go so well with someone running around the sides, so forth and so on.

Also I'm debating about side step, but that's only because of the particular format I'm playing. In Pbem it would take about a year to play an Ogre team if you had to send an e-mail for every sidestep. So you can either set where the first sidestep with a player will go, or you could send insturctions, but barring that the tool would just randomly side step you.

And in any case the playstyle issue comes up as soon as they get dodge. i.e. do you use the expensive guy who can survive or even come to dominate the exchange, or burn through a few linemen.

[mattgslater]

I wouldn't think using one Runner or the other this way would impact his development tree beyond "get Dodge first." That's not a bad principle, anyway, so no biggie. Once I had a Runner with two skills, I'd try to use the other Runner that way instead.

[PubBowler]

I've never been convinced by the Runner as ball carrier arguement.

Yes they're your fastest player.
But you're Linos are MA6 (and there are less good normal skills for them so Sure Hands could be chosen)

I just don't see that MA7 as critical for their drive.

What Norse lack is agility access.
IMO Runners should get Side Step, Diving Tackle, Tackle.

This gives you guys who can keep hold of deep receivers and attack the back of the cage.

This also ties in with my aversion to taking Dodge when the team isn't going to be dedcated to it.

[mattgslater]

With PubBowler here: get SH on a Thrower, and distribute the ball aggressively. I like to use Runners to help me cage: fronting up with Blodgers to protect an Ulf or Lino is pretty effective.

I like Catch as a #2 skill on the #2 Runner, as it lets me distribute Comps much more smoothly. But even then he's not really a ball carrier and only scores a little more often than a lineman.

[voyagers_uk]

I am with Sunnyside on this, I have had great success using the Runners as the linebacker/fullback role.

Block, Dauntless and MA7 is too good a combo not to use in this way, I started my last Norse team with both at the expenses of the Ulf's and went MB on one and Tackle on the other followed by vice versa on both for skill 2, one even got a +AG to make him even more mobile.

Lino's get Guard and the Thrower gets SH to make him teh ball carrier Dump Off for a second allows him to shovel it off to whoever is close.

the SNow Troll and Beserkers get busy with the weaker members of the opposition and the Runners lay the smack against the big guys and ST4 pieces

[JPS]

I have used Pro effectively as a third skill on my Norse Runners. I like Dodge first and Side Step second.

It can help with Dauntless, but I find Dauntless underused once you have your Snow Troll and Block on both Ulfs. Dauntless is much more useful in early team development when you may not have your stronger guys or don't want to Frenzy with Ulfs without block.

I find Pro to be more helpful as a "poor man's agility upgrade." Without having done out the math, I believe that on an unmodified Agility Roll the chance of success for AG 4 (3+) without a reroll is close to the chance of success for AG 3 (4+) with a reroll. Pro gives you a 50% chance to reroll any one roll during your player's action. It's like an AG 3.5 for any one roll. And it's more flexible than skills that give a guaranteed reroll to one specific act (Sure Hands, Catch, etc.) I also find that I don't often have to do more than one dodge roll and one additional agility roll (catch the ball, pick it up, second Dodge, etc.) in any given turn with a single Runner. But that second roll often varies throughout the course of the game. With the Dodge skill and Pro, I have given a fair amount of improvement to my Runner's success rate on any given turn which compounds to a substantially greater success rate over the course of a game and even more over the course of a league. I have even considered giving the Runners Pro second and Side Step third.

In summary, on a Norse Runner:

Starts with: 7 3 3 7 Dauntless, Block
1st Skill: Dodge - primarily for defending against blocks; secondarily for the reroll of dodges
2nd Skill: Side Step - Block, Dodge, Side Step, need I say more?
3rd Skill: Pro - primarily for rerolling a wide variety of Agility rolls; secondarily for pairing with Dauntless

Pro is not as good as an AG+1 and if you absolutely must make the catch/pick-up/pass/whatever, you're better off burning a Team Reroll. But the wide-ranging flexibility of the skill makes it an excellent third choice for a team that has mediocre ball handling ability.

- JS

[DoubleSkulls]

I increasingly like the idea of Fend after Blodge SS since you can choose where to go and they can't automatically follow up - and even if blitzing might be in a TZ or otherwise unable to reach you. Avoiding having to make dodge rolls on AG3 players is good.

The problem with Pro is that most of the rolls he is making are turnovers so you tend to want to use TRR on those anyway - undermining the point of Pro. Pro tends to be best either on players with AG4 and no Agility skill access (e.g. +AG Orc Blitzers) or on blockers - especially those with Dauntless - who are looking for more knockdowns.

[mattgslater]

I find Pro is great for players who must be able to fill multiple positions, like Dwarf Blitzers and Ghouls. Since you don't know what this player is going to do (block, pick up, pass, catch) no one skill does it all, except Pro. I'd be leery of taking Pro on an all-AG3 team, unless it was a follow-up to Block/Frenzy or Block/Tackle on a player without S access (read: not so much on a Norse Runner, but a nice #2 skill for a single Norse Lino with Tackle). It's also a good #3-4 selection for a Berserker, after Mighty Blow and (Stand Firm and/or Piling On).

[voyagers_uk]

I never found pro to be that reliable