Some thoughts on Ogres

[Kapten Vendetta]

Checked (hastily) the formation-naming-thread, and it got me thinking; what defensive set ups are commonly used with Ogres, or rather; which set ups do you use? Graphs would be greatly appreciated!

[voyagers_uk]

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[Kapten Vendetta]

No sure I follow you there UK, "O" for Ogre and "S" for Snots', now that I'd understand, graphics-wise that is!

So; how to place 'em for defence?

[Fat_Emrys]

Hmm. The wide zones on that pitch are a little narrower than on mine.

Are the End ogres standing in the wide zone?

[plasmoid]

Hi Kapten Vendetta,
I wanted to contribute to this thread, but haven't had the time.
I know that some of my advice is contrary to what others have posted - but I've had reasonable success with ogres, so I'm sticking to it

First thing: I stand by snotlings being crucial. I'd rather have 15 man roster than the 5th or 6th ogre. Ogres are just so heavy. In fact, I find that when I have an MNG ogre, the lowered TV and added mobility has worked out just fine.

Also: I'm adamant that snots can run the ball. Not so much against elfs, but against most other teams. It's all about risk management: Set up a loose formation of TZs, to force lots of dodges. 3-4 3+ rolls to get at the ball is not easy. That will usually mean that it is not profitable to dodge in an assist first. (6-8 3+'s is a lot!). So, set up your ball carrier so he gets an assist. Suddenly it's just 2 dice with dodge - not that easy. And if he goes down, either the blitzer will try to take the ball, in which case you'll get to take a swing at him on your turn - or someone else will have to dodge in to throw the ball... Yet another 3-4 3+ rolls, + a tricky pick-up, + a pass. Not easy

Now, I find that ogre defense is cr*p, so I generally try to run a 2-1 grind:
On my own offense I load the line with ogres (to hopefully cause some damage) then spread the snots out, have one ogre around midfield, and 2 snots further back.

If the ball goes near my endzone, I don't want a bone-head with MA5 running it, so the snots grab it and run. If the ball goes to the midfield or near the LOS, I try to grab it with an ogre, since moving half the length of the pitch is a lot more manageable. If an ogre is fetching the ball I always cover it with TZs, and I always leave one snot unmoved (and within range) in case the ogre boneheads. Generally, I leave a lot of players in my backfield at these kick-offs, because I'm in no hurry to get anywhere.

On defense, I generally try to protect my snots. 3 ogres on the LOS, or 2 ogres and a snot wedged between them (if I have too few ogres). Then a long string (ogre - 2 squares - ogre - 2 squares - ogre) of 3 ogres behind that - and that snots hiding behind those. Yep - it ain't much of a defense, but I generally find that my opponents don't really want to score fast, as they'll just be givin me too much time for my 2-1 grind. So I'll have plenty of time to regroup and strike back.

Oh - against slow teams I sometimes set up a snot far forward. The threat of a TTM (rather than an actual TTM) can sometimes force my opponent to put more ball fetchers into their own backfield - and hence out of the first few turns of fighting.

I hope this helps
Cheers
Martin

[sann0638]

Agree with a lot of what Plasmoid wrote. I have a snot with AG2 that sits on my line of scrimmage - they will pick up injuries, so rather than firing them straight off, use them as line fodder.

I wouldn't use an ogre as a ball carrier even near half way, because I'm just not confident about them making the last six squares (because often a dodge is needed). With a snot, as soon as they get within 7 squares of the endzone (or 8 with sprint) they are 2+ all the way. Get sure feet, and it's 2+ all the way with up to 3 rerolls. Then roll those dice!

[mattgslater]

I've watched a couple of Ogre teams mess around in our D-league, and having seen how fragile those Snots are against even underdeveloped opposition, I think it's important to have scoring plays designed for Ogres, to build durable improvements on the team. Having a single Catch Snot to use as a pressing fullback is good policy for the same reason, as it lets you convert rookie Ogre MVPs quickly and as reliably as that messy sort of thing ever gets. This is definitely a factor on teams like Vamps, Undead, Lizardmen, Nurgle and Halflings: it's got to be even more of a factor with Ogres, though I definitely see how hard it is (worse than Nurgle, but still not as hard as it is for Lizards...).

[Carnis]

MVP ogres will skill up if you put them to LOS and let their S5 and mighty blow do the trick much quicker than if you try some desperate comp-plays.. At least my probs with ogres were not about player development, but more about the miserable MA of the ogres combined with boner & S1.

I see what plasmoid attempts to do, what I dont see is how he'll ever manage to rummage through the pitch with MA5 players for 2 TDss per game.. But then, I've played a lot of elves with my ogres..

[sann0638]

I see what plasmoid attempts to do, what I dont see is how he'll ever manage to rummage through the pitch with MA5 players for 2 TDss per game.. But then, I've played a lot of elves with my ogres..

Lots of teams do manage to do this - some use CWs as ball carriers, some orc throwers, dwarf teams regularly 2-1 grind. It's not reliable (because they're snotlings!) but it is doable.

[Pipey]

Playing the ogres in a league at the moment. My roster has developed to a point of something like maximum effectiveness = 6 Ogres, 10 snots, 5RR. You need the full 16 and at least 5RR is essential too with no general skills and bonehead.

My Ogres all have Guard.
Three have Break Tackle too, one of which has Juggernaut as a 3rd skill.
Still not rolled a single double which is a pain!

I also have two snotlings with Sure Feet.

Every game's a massive struggle but I'm enjoying it.

The one thing that's hard to take is the inflated TV and consequential inducements I'm giving away. My TV is over 170 and is about 25-45 higher than other teams in the league.

In my last few games I've had to deal with:
*the Shadowing/Stab/Prehensile Tail Gutter Runner thing (no fun for snotlings)
*goblins with star chainsaw, star fanatic and 3 bribes (plus normal chainsaw, fanatic and bomb)
*Brick and Grotty
*Several special play cards - one of which made a big difference at a crucial stage of the game
*Crazy Igor!!!! ( well actually he's not that frightening )

I think it's partly a problem with the inducement system itself (the skills I'm paying 20k for are worth much less than the block, tackle, leader etc. that other teams in the league are paying 20k for), and partly due to the ogres being too expensive (I wish they were 130k, this would make a real difference and help humans a touch too).

[Carnis]

I think it's partly a problem with the inducement system itself (the skills I'm paying 20k for are worth much less than the block, tackle, leader etc. that other teams in the league are paying 20k for), and partly due to the ogres being too expensive (I wish they were 130k, this would make a real difference and help humans a touch too).

Wrote about that in Plasmoids buff ogres thread. The ogres pay extra on the starting cost (140k for a S5 guy with a negatrait vs a mummy.. with no negatraits at 110k). AND on every useful skillup too (30k doubles for block etc).

Fluffwise it's supposed to be as bad as Oldheim Ogres though, that's something the team probably manages.

[plasmoid]

I completely agree on 130K ogres BTW.
I'm just wondering if that doesn't entail that all big guys should be dropped 10K..?

[Oxynot]

I'll voice my agreement on Ogre price decrease as well Especially since this would only make them slightly less horrid, but possibly a leap more playable.

And I'll use this chance to ask you guys for an opinion on development: what to get a blocking piling on ogre on a normal roll? I'm thinking juggernaut, but would not scoff at break tackle either. The team has six ogres, three with block, two with guard and two with break tackle.

[Carnis]

I'll voice my agreement on Ogre price decrease as well Especially since this would only make them slightly less horrid, but possibly a leap more playable.

And I'll use this chance to ask you guys for an opinion on development: what to get a blocking piling on ogre on a normal roll? I'm thinking juggernaut, but would not scoff at break tackle either. The team has six ogres, three with block, two with guard and two with break tackle.

I'd look at Multiple Block / Grab (in either order). You'll be able to set up multiple MB/PO blocks/turn on the turns you receive the kickoff as you have 2 guards. Granted, your opponent can't have wrestle or block until you get grab.. and you can only use PO on the 2nd block (without losing the 2nd block) so it's not *that* powerful. Grab could possibly help get easier 1TTDs..

Guard isn't a bad idea despite his piling on. Cant have too much of break tackle either.

I would probably skip jugs.. Better take it on some one who has BT and hasnt got block. Probably any non-double skill after the PO/Block will be bloat anyway..

[mattgslater]

I think that 10k price decrease on Ogres would go a long way toward balancing out Humans, particularly in early development.