League experience using Assassins as Stabbers

[Smeborg]

I put out a Dark Elf team (No Pain, No Gain) recently in our open league, in order to provide gentle opposition for some new teams. A secondary consideration was to gain general experience with DEs in preparation for next season, and specifically with Assassins. I esteem the Star Player Stabbers highly (especially Rashnak Backstabber, whom I have used to good effecty against a nasty Skaven team). So I was curious to see what the rookie Assassins on the DE team could do.

The starting roster was:

3 Blitzers
2 Assassins
6 Linos
2 Re-rolls

After 10 games, the roster is:

Witch Elf: Wrestle (6 SPPs)
Witch Elf: Wrestle (6 SPPs)
Blitzer: +1AG, Dodge, Tackle (42 SPPs)
Blitzer: Dodge, Tackle (18 SPPs)
Blitzer: - (0 SPPs)
Assassin: - (1 SPP)
Assassin: -1AG (0 SPPs)
Lino: Block, Dodge (16 SPPs)
Lino: Block (10 SPPs)
Lino: Block (10 SPPs)
Lino: Guard (7 SPPs)
Lino: - (3 SPPs)
Lino: - (0 SPPs)
2 RR, 1 Apoth, 0 FF, 0 CL, 0 money, TV 161

The all-round development of the team is pleasing (especially the Linos). (This is a "concept" and training team - I have deliberately chosen no ball movement skills - I know this is sub-optimal.) Although purchased late, the Witch Elves were very easy to skill up, due to their mobility - one did so in her first game, the other in her second. The roster would be bigger, but for a couple of deaths (one in game 1 before the Apoth was purchased, one in game 10, when a death was Apothd to a death...). The one permanent injury was also due to a failed Apoth. A classic BB Apoth, in other words.

Opposition has been Chaos (4), High Elf (3), Elf (2), Norse (1), which is all very gentle by the standards of our bash-heavy league. The team has got noticeably better as it skills up (WDLLLWWWWW).

The Assassins, which I have used in "Stab Mode" as often as I reasonably can, have achieved 27 armour penetrations between them in 10 games (including 11 KOs, 2 BH and 1 Death). This is somewhat better than it looks, as there have been 3 MNGs by the Assassins, and usually one of them will miss at least a half due to injury during the game. However, they have completely failed to skill up (1 SPP between them in 10 games), despite several attempts to give them TDs. They also seem often to be out of position (for example, left on the line of scrimmage due to a failed stab). In this respect (positionally), they seem wrong on what ought to be an elegant AG4 side. For example, this inhibits caging (on offense). The Assassins are naturally less useful, not only against higher AV teams, but against teams with lots of Block (the extreme being the game against Norse - not one armour penetration by the Assassins, as they were typically blocked away). Being weak and unprotected, you have to find ways to "hide" the Assassins in your defensive set-up (unlike, say a Lino with Block, who can look after himself). To be fair, the Assassins have contributed to some results, but this was more the case early on, whereas the Linos seem to have taken over as they skill up. Thus the Assassins seem to be becoming more of a liability with each game they play, even being inclined to lurk in the dugout at times (180,000 is rather costly for a pair of bench-warmers).

In conclusion (sadly), I despair of skilling up the Assassins, without unduly harming the team's results. Without skills, I cannot see them being of much use in the long term, whereas the skilled Linos are becoming outstanding. So, with a tear in my eye, I will probably limit Assassins to inducement options in my DE team next season. This conclusion is not just based on performance assessment. It is also to do with my preferred playing style for the team. I have encountered skilled Assassins, so I know it can be done, but I feel that SPPs on the Linos are more valuable for the way I like to play.

[mattgslater]

Here's why I keep it to one Assassin.

On a Dark Elf defense, there is a strong incentive to put linemen on the LOS and positionals in the backfield. But if you put all your linos on the LOS, you won't skill them. So you need to put at least 5 linos on the field, leaving you room for two Witches and four Blitzers. It's not unreasonable to rotate one player out sometimes, especially if you have a Blodge/SS Blitzer that you can send to the line from time to time. One Assassin is an OK benchwarmer against heavy teams and a quality starter against the light ones, and you can shuffle him out for a Runner on offense (for that matter, you don't have to run 5 linemen on offense to keep your progression flowing). But you don't normally want to field Assassins as full-timers, because they screw up your lineman progression.

I'd fire the -AG Assassin once I could afford a Blitzer, and keep the other one in the Comp rotation, right behind guys who need one SPP to go up. On defense, field him in the wide zone and tempt your opponent to build strong the other way, either with an asymmetric build or with a couple of scary skills on one side. This will help your efforts to score with the guy (though that 3SPP lineman would be my first TD target...). If you're playing perpetual, take Dodge as your first skill, so you're more likely to score with him and he's less likely to die.

Speaking of that 3SPP lineman: you know the most important skill for smoothing out SPP development? Kick. Dodge may be the best skill overall: on any given player, Kick is way down the chart. But when it comes to toolbox skills for speed teams, Kick is Job One.

[Smeborg]

Matt - I put Linos on the LoS in defense, and these same Linos have skilled up.

I have deliberately chosen not to take Kick on this team (I know it is a great skill for DEs). Similarly I have not taken Sure Hands, etc.

I'm still not sure of the case for Assassins. A Fouler (Lino with S-Git/D-Player) would probably wreak more havoc.

[Carnis]

I'm still not sure of the case for Assassins. A Fouler (Lino with S-Git/D-Player) would probably wreak more havoc.

Certainly, although I wonder if the S-git is necessary.

Try aggressively skill one of Your AAs: Block, SS, Dodge (dodge can be skill 1 or skill 3, but SS has to be skill 2). Then Jump up, or if you can get it +AV!

Tell us how it goes.. In theory it should be great vs tackle-less sides! You should be winning by default vs MB fielding AV8 players still.

The math:

Chance to KD your ASSASSIN on a block 1-5/6*5/6 = 11/36
*0,58 chance to KO+ with MB/PO, 17,7%
*0,31 chance to KO+ with MB, 9,5%
*0,17 chance to KO+ without MB, 5,1%

Chance to KD your ASSASSIN with Block/tackle 1-2/3*2/3 = 5/9
*0,58 = 32,2% vs MB/PO/Tackle
*0,31 = 17,2% vs MB/Tackle
*0,17 = 9,4% vs Tackle

vs your chance to pass armor: 15/36 | 10/36 | 6/36 (AV7-9) and
chance of KO+ vs AV7 17,3%
chance of KO+ vs AV8 11,5%
chance of KO+ vs AV9 6,9%

The numbers are close enough, that you should be winning most battles vs AV7 and the starting player (the one who gets to block first) wins vs AV8 and you just lose vs AV9 (the vs AV9 games could be a good opportunity to get those SPPs on your asn's). Another good thing is tieing big guys with assassins.. The bg's RARELY get tackle. Just dont let them 3db.

[Smeborg]

Thanks, Carnis, that's great, I understand the maths. But I despair of 2 things in practice:

- Aggressive skilling up of Assassins just does not seem possible without compromising game results significantly.

- They will surely get killed or damaged before they get to their 3rd skill.

And a minor point: surely +1MA is preferable to +1AV (because of Shadowing)?

All the best.

[mattgslater]

+MA > +AV 95% of the time. Hobgoblin/PE template is not normally any different: AV7-8 is a big deal, but so is MA6-7, especially on a Shadowing player.

[Carnis]

- Aggressive skilling up of Assassins just does not seem possible without compromising game results significantly.

- They will surely get killed or damaged before they get to their 3rd skill.

And a minor point: surely +1MA is preferable to +1AV (because of Shadowing)?

Surely you didn't take your ASNs because of shadowing? While great in theory in practice shadowing almost universally leads to your player being punched in the face instead of dodged away. If I'd be convinced my opponents run from my AV7 shadowing stab player then I'd take the +MA..

I'd go for +AV for jump up synergy, but only as skill 4 so this is heavily theorybowl (first 3 skills I'd skip anything but a +ST).

Skilling up assassins should not be any harder than skilling up linemen, take dodge first skill & your assassin is basicly pretty easy to use as a ballcarrier.. And if you get in a tight spot just qp away and he still gets 1 SPP. Generally also I find opponents rarely mark assassins, for fear of the "riskless" avcheck.. So he could be a pass target as well.. (at least vs av7-8).