To rat ogre or not to rat ogre?

[Cramy]

Don't take him now, take him later, if at all. I often play without a Rat Ogre, and if you develop your GRs for defense, it usually works fine.

But I would get the RO as the 14th player, especially to play on defense. Remember that you don't have to field him every drive.

[Harry Buddha Palm]

I've completely changed my opinion on rat ogres. At first, I loved mine. He caused casualties. He moved people out of the way and made holes for my gutter runners. He drew attention away from my gutter runners. He tripped players with his tail. I felt he was well worth the cost. But then I had a string of games where he was completely useless to me. I kept getting 1's on wild animal rolls. He kept getting knocked out or worse and spent the majority of games in the casualty box. He missed games completely due to injury (games which I won without him). He was just not pulling his weight anymore, plus with two skills on him, he was really bloating my TV. Skaven are a team that need to be receiving inducements, not giving them, so I ended up firing his ass.

Someone made a really good post about minotaurs on a Chaos team somewhere saying that minotaurs are really good early on in a league when teams aren't very skilled, but later on, as teams become more skilled up, minotaurs become much less useful. I think this applies to rat ogres as well. Early on, their raw strength coupled with frenzy can make a big impact. But, as time goes on, teams will get more and more skills like guard and mighty blow and dodge and side step and the impact of Big Guys diminishes. The Achilles's Heel of both the minotaur and the rat ogre is their 8 armor. Once mighty blow and claw become more and more present in a league, it becomes much easier to break their armor and take them off the pitch. The growing abundance of guard negates their primary strength as well, which is their 5 strength.

Another problem is the experience levels of opponents increases as a league goes on. Wang mentioned that a lot of coaches will put half of their team on his ogre in an attempt to bring it down. That was my initial experience with my rat ogre. People would put four or five guys on it to take it out, which would make a hole for my runners to go through. I think a lot of rookie coaches will make that mistake. As coaches become more experienced, though, I think they will learn to just neutralize or avoid big guys and concentrate on more important players. Also, as I said earlier, it becomes easier for bashy teams to take a big guy out with guard. Instead of putting four or five guys on a big guy, they can do it with two or three and mighty blow and claw will insure that the big guy stays down, too.

Another problem I have with the rat ogre that I didn't really notice until recently is that he takes SPPs away from my blitzers. I've played over 20 games with my skaven and my blitzers are nowhere near where they should be in skills. A big part of that is because I'm blitzing (or trying to blitz and failing miserably) with my rat ogre when he's on the pitch. Getting rid of the rat ogre will mean me using my blitzers to blitz and hopefully getting them some casualties and skills.

I think the reason why there is such a huge debate over rat ogres is because they aren't horrible players, they're just really hit and miss. Much like chainsaws and fanatics and stabbers, when a rat ogre works, it works really well. The problem is that they don't always work. Just like a chainsaw can tear through a team when the dice are good, it can be completely useless when the dice don't go well. If rat ogres had 9 armor and could take a beating better, I think they may very well be worth the cost, but as it is, they are just too expensive, too easy to injur, and too slow when compared to the rest of the team to be worth the huge TV and, really, they just aren't needed. Not once was there ever a time when my rat ogre was responsible for me winning a game, even at his best. So, I'm joining the Naysayers camp when it comes to the rat ogre.

[Waaagh]

As many of you said: RatOgre isn't a winning player, but can be as useful as he can't.

Many depends od Wild animal Dice roll, but i play him this way:

I have Guard on him, but even before i try to not Blitz with him, instead of the first turn.

On first turn i'm almost always able to crowd push one of the sideline defenders. If my opponent setup his team so i can't, i just try to move Ratogre. If he don't, it doesn't hurt so much. Then, i'm just trying to block with him. Blitz is a little tricky with him, so i'm trying not to use it. Still, i think even when he block his way just 2/3 of his actions he still is better for me than a Skaven Blitzer.

I love how he beats Flesh Golems Stand Firm and strenght (Juggernaut), how he use his Mighty Blow on Norse and Elf. I really can't imagine, how he would work for me with tackle and break tackle.

Summary: Block with him, tackle with him (you will see, how many times your opponents will be KOd from failed dodge roll) sometimes (when it's safe, and not important) you can Blitz

But regarding inducements, the truth is, without him, you can more often buy Headsplitter, and he is my favourite Star Player, IMO he's even better than Morg'N'Thorg.

[Cybertroll]

I like RO a lot... in fact, all I read in this topic is correct, but there is also another question... RO take Guard, have you haven't got S abilities except for blitzers (only 0-2). Mine RO takes Guard, then Pro on a double (no block. Yes, i avoid block specifically to have more oppurtunity to avoid Wild Animal). His low (for a big guy) AV is his only weakness.
After twelve games (and after i recruit a new one: the first RO died in the first game, just before I can take the Apo), I can say only: yes, take it.
He's useful, and with Guard it really boost skaven play (you can blitz, break into enemy line, and then 2d-blocking with lines - extremely useful against a cage).

[Funksultan]

Fantastic summation of the RO in this thread.

Put my vote down as "Yes" for the RO. Eliminating opposing players is important for skaven. It's not crucial like it is for bashy teams, but if they lose players on the field, it's that much harder to cage, move an existing cage, or break the cage apart for the score. Skaven D needs to be aggressive, but if you can get to an 11 v 9 advantage on the field, things look MUCH MUCH better for ya.

Yes, he's unpredictable, but Str 5, mighty blow, and the potential to crowd surf... Skaven don't have a ton of tools to even up the body count, and the RO is one of the few they have access to.

I've seen great teams with the RO, and great teams without. Do whichever you enjoy more. I've tried both within the past 3 years, and I prefer having the drooling, slobbering idiot.

[Craigtw]

I "ditto" what Funksultan has said.

But whether or not he is legitimately useful on your team to perform in the way that you want him to, the rat ogre is a great piece of psychological warfare! Even if they have been referred to as some as "useless sacks of fail"!

[mattgslater]

I'm with Funk and Craig. Rat Ogres do have a serious liability factor, but it's outweighed by the upside. I think they carry a lot of baggage, because they used to be a lot worse. If you think WA sucks in LRB5, take a little trip through BB history and you'll see some real rules-design horror stories. Even very recently, 160k functioned as a unique anti-skill: highest price in the game for a player who isn't in the discussion for best overall player or even best at his position.

In the defensive lingo we've been using, I make ROs into "strong midfielders" if I run a bunched up LOS, and "centerfielders" in a spread-out or offset line. In AmFB, the term would be "Mike" ILB, either in a 3-3 or a 3-4, depending on how you set your LOS. Either way, the objective is to use him to block off space in the backfield, and not allow the opponent to get two assists. Against really heavy teams who don't fear a ST5 player, you have to keep a screen behind him at least until you get Stand Firm, or he'll get hurt (probably followed by several other guys).

Reg skill = Stand Firm, Guard. Get Guard on both SVs as a first skill, and work to get them up.
Doubles = Block, then Claw, SS or Dodge.

[Waaagh]

mattgslater - i really recomend juggernaut as 1st or 2nd skill on normal roll. Of course that depends on playstyle, but for me, Jugg is much better than Standfirm.

[mattgslater]

I don't like to blitz with the Rat Ogre, so I think Juggernaut is a better #3 skill.

[Smeborg]

Speaking as an opponent, I am very happy to play against Wild Animals.

All you need to do is to isolate them from your players, or, even better, knock them down, while ensuring that they have a poor Blitz option. Then they will spend half the game staring into space.

[Grumbledook]

I like Minos on Chaos Dwarfs, I don't like Rat Ogres on Skaven

I'd rather have the TV worth of skills on my players instead, or induce a wizard or a couple of babes instead.

[mattgslater]

Speaking as an opponent, I am very happy to play against Wild Animals.

All you need to do is to isolate them from your players, or, even better, knock them down, while ensuring that they have a poor Blitz option. Then they will spend half the game staring into space.

If you can do this to your opponent, then shame on you should you ever lose to that guy with or without a Wild Animal. Skaven need to turn the game over... and over and over and over. Proper use of a Rat Ogre makes it very hard to isolate him, and makes most failed WA rolls merely inconvenient, unless/until the opponent gets control of the game. Then a successful use of the RO is often the difference maker, so the chance to blow it isn't such an issue. If your point is "Stand Firm on a Rat Ogre is really cool," I agree wholeheartedly.

One trick to using a WA player is to keep him between the hashmarks unless you have a very good reason not to. The midfielder/Mike LB position is great for an RO. Isolating a ST5 centerfielder in an "arrowhead" formation (viewtopic.php?f=4&t=29010) is a pretty neat trick, when you consider that by staying where he is and exerting a TZ he's probably still useful. It's not hard go game to protect him once you can afford him: a single Guard/SF Stormvermin on the nose can make it pretty tough to hit him with 2d.

[Funksultan]

I have a couple different "modes" of using my RO.

1. If there is nothing pressing going on, I will be keeping him in the backfield, and he will be using my blitz. Assuming you do't have a VERY well developed "Killer" Stormvermin, he's your best chance to eliminate another player, swing the numbers game a little more in your favor, and maybe even get him some much needed SPP, and a shot at the magic doubles / stat. Keeping him safe here is important so your opponent doesn't easily take the opportunity to eliminate an expensive, AV8 model.

2. If the board seems "busy" (opponent's cage is broken, ball is on the ground, someone is having trouble caging back up, etc), then I want him in the thick of it, pressing people with his tackle zones. These are the times that if my opponent wants to commit the strength/effort to knock him down, my other players are going to make him pay for it.

3. The usual problem I have is when he's in the backfield (#1 above) and a crucial blitz is needed (ball carrier is 1 turn away from scoring, etc). You can't really count on the RO here in some cases, especially if a stormvermin is available to do the job. In these cases, I'll usually try to position him to cause some problems, and maybe occupy/distract my opponent from the big play I have on deck if the blitz is successful.

Still love em, even when they double-skull at the wrong time.

[Cloggy]

I can't help but notice that the thread is discussinf mostly wether Rat Ogres are good or not, which they are.

But they are certainly not 150k worth of good compared to the other options a skaven team has.

I would not buy one.

[Purplegoo]

'Tis weird Clogmeister, I too think a RO is an overvalued waste in a progressive team - he was in 4, and then they made him more expensive in 5+! Madness!

However, the more tabletop I play, the more people I seem to run into that love them and enjoy a Mino or RO blitz as if it's a good idea. I figure they can't all be wrong? I *suppose* when it gets Jugs (must be the first skill on a normal roll nowadays if you're running a RO?) it's not so bad, but even so, every time I hear 'Blitz with the *insert big guy*' I let out a little squeal of excitement, can't help it! Perhaps at a low TV tourney type thing you need the MB, and you can feed it a double for Block, and it's a randomiser in a good way. In a league, it's too much one in a bad way for my blood - if you blitz with it. If you don't, it's a 150k lump with AV 8 that you aren't using on half the turns. Great!

For me - it depends on the length of the league you're playing in as to whether the RO is worth considering. Shorter the league, the better an idea he is for that random joy. If it's a longer league, he's more of an extravagance. More so, in my view, than any other BG on any other team.