To rat ogre or not to rat ogre?

[PubBowler]

'Tis weird Clogmeister, I too think a RO is an overvalued waste in a progressive team - he was in 4, and then they made him more expensive in 5+! Madness!

However, the more tabletop I play, the more people I seem to run into that love them and enjoy a Mino or RO blitz as if it's a good idea. I figure they can't all be wrong? I *suppose* when it gets Jugs (must be the first skill on a normal roll nowadays if you're running a RO?) it's not so bad, but even so, every time I hear 'Blitz with the *insert big guy*' I let out a little squeal of excitement, can't help it! Perhaps at a low TV tourney type thing you need the MB, and you can feed it a double for Block, and it's a randomiser in a good way. In a league, it's too much one in a bad way for my blood - if you blitz with it. If you don't, it's a 150k lump with AV 8 that you aren't using on half the turns. Great!

For me - it depends on the length of the league you're playing in as to whether the RO is worth considering. Shorter the league, the better an idea he is for that random joy. If it's a longer league, he's more of an extravagance. More so, in my view, than any other BG on any other team.

Thoroughly agree, and seem to remember reading this from you before.

At low TV, especially tournies, the risk-reward is in your favour ith agressive use og a big guy.
With developed league sides it's not.

Some big guys are still worth taking even if you never blitz with them.
I'm not sure the Rat Ogre is one of them.

[Purplegoo]

Thoroughly agree, and seem to remember reading this from you before.

I can never remember where I've posted various rants; apologies if this one has crossed the FUMBBL / TBB divide before now.

[Baduk]

conclusion: roll a die
pffff useless forum

[Harry Buddha Palm]

I played my first game without my rat ogre last night and I won. I didn't miss his fat ass at all. In fact, I was having a hard time in that game due to the star players he was able to induce and use against me. I couldn't help but wonder how much worse it would've been if he had had more than double that inducement cash. A wizard, certainly, would've robbed me of victory. I feel like my team is leaner and meaner without him. Well, okay, maybe not meaner, but certainly leaner and more streamlined.

[DoubleSkulls]

I think someone else pointed out that RO (and Minos) are generally better early on. So starting with one, but not replacing them when they die or retire sort of makes sense to me. If you get lucky with doubles then the risks can be mitigated somewhat, but also there is an argument that in an average game 16 turns. Blitzing with the RO should lose you 2 2/3 blitzes. So are those 13 1/3 blitzes you do make better for your chances of winning that game and the ones you miss out on? i.e. is making fewer blitzes, but with S5, Frenzy & MB, going to give you a better result than otherwise? Its difficult to do the maths because there is a lot to take into account - making blitzes without any assists for example. However just the fact you are hitting with MB (assuming Frenzy gives comparable knock downs to Block) should mean you are generating nearly double the number you would otherwise (about 1.3 vs 0.7) even though you are missing 1/6 of the actions.

I think its very easy to focus on the negative aspects of big guys and forget about the positives.

[mattgslater]

I hardly ever blitz with any big guy, and I almost always find they're useful. Yes, WA sucks in that if the action moves away you have a hard time keeping up. But if you keep him near centerfield he'll always be useful and usually stuck in. That's why I think Stand Firm is so valuable for this player type.

[Carnis]

WA really isnt as bad as people say. I only have experience on a snowtroll playing norse and playing against WAs, but.. Seriously a S5 bg who CANNOT lose his TZ, EVER. The only downside ofc is the AV8.. But using your BG with blocks, at the end of turn, and rerolling stuns with PO you will probably be winnings players on average, not losing.

You'll not be activating 50% of the time, but the same is true for most of your linemen who get marked -> you take the dodge at the end of turn or not at all, and its a 33% chance to fail, but failing is still an armor check.. The failed WA is just a "well, nothing happens".

Surely WAs are tons better than treemen with take root, still nobody advocates skipping treemen. S5 and frenzy are also great. I also find that abusing take root by dodging away your players from a rooted treeman is a lot more common, than playing out a WA by marking him out.. often only dwarves/orcs can do this, and often if you can mark 2 players by chainblocking yourself into the thick of it you're winning players again.. (Marking 2x S3 with 1x S5).

I'm btw on the opposite camp, early on when you dont have any FF every 10k of inducement matters, later on when your team is developed it has room for some fat (every double is +30k, every point of FF is 10k, excess players are 50-70k each) and the RO there is only a 90k difference.. The difference between 1.8k and 1.89k is a lot smaller than the difference between 1000k and 1090k, or the difference between 11 or 13 players in the startup.

[zakspeed]

I started a league with a rat ogre, he quickly smashed holes in the defence and let the gutter runners through.
He event got a double as his first skill roll s go block (not that I remember it making that much difference for him though).
Then he got killed.... at that point my team had caused 22 casualties, 18 of them down to the rat ogre.....

After that I didnt bother buying a rat ogre until close to the end of the league... but I did find I missed him when it came to trying to break cages.... my skaven just bounced off, or managed to knock the ball loose just for another of the opposition to pick it up again....
So he was an excellent cage breaker and also tended o tie up 2 opposition a turn which meant the more crunchier rats were not getting pulverised quite as quick....

I'm still in 2 minds about the RO.
I probably wouldnt take one next time, or if I did he would be only used when kicking (as a cage breaker), i wouldnt use him when receiving as I dont want to have to worry about losing a blitz...

[mattgslater]

WA is like 2/3 of Bonehead, with the added downside of MA2 when standing up and a similar disadvantage when trying Move actions. So if you can keep him upright and in TZs, it's not that big a deal. I think that once you've got Stand Firm on a Rat Ogre, he's an excellent player; Stand Firm prevents pushes, which eliminates the incentive for 1d or 1/2d blocks, even as Prehensile Tail penalizes dodge attempts. Moreover, Stand Firm makes it easier to game for 3d blocks on the following turn, and thus less likely to fall down. Each of these makes it less likely that you will have to take a Move or Blitz action.

[Grumbledook]

I don't follow how stand firm makes 3db easier the following turn, did you just mean it makes having a block more likely next turn?

[mattgslater]

Positional skills reduce the number of things that can go wrong in the opponent's turn. You can't get pushed into defensive assists, and opponents can't push/follow away from your assists.

[Porkus_Maximus]

In fairness, most of my experience with rat ogres comes from playing against them rather than using them myself. I only ever coached a single skaven team under LRB4 and I only recently started coaching my first "proper" skaven team under LRB5 (the first team got totally Nuffled from game 1 and was abandoned), but my opinion mirrors those in this thread.

Generally speaking I would regard an opponent's RO as a mild annoyance first and a juicy target second, although this could be due to playing below average coaches. The way I see the RO he's too unreliable to do anything important (IE, blitz) and too vulnerable to put on the LOS, so if you're not blitzing and you're not blocking you have to resign yourself to the 50% chance of standing around and doing nothing. 150k is a lot of money to spend on a player to exert TZs, even if he does have ST5 and prehensile tail. Maybe I have become too cautious but I am loathed to make 2 dice blocks with a block-less big guy, especially rat ogres and minotaurs. Getting 3 dice blocks before teams become developed is reasonably easy but as teams get more and more guard it becomes more and more difficult. Juggernaut would make the blitzes more reliable but does nothing for his blocks and I agree with Matt that guard/stand firm are probably better skill choices.

All that said, I threw caution to the wind and bought a RO for my current skaven team. In 13 games he has caused 6 casualties, 2 of which were permanently RIP'ed minotaurs. He even managed to RIP a 3rd minotaur (saved by apoth), so a full 50% of his casualties so far have been dead minotaurs! The biggest complaint I have at the moment (I believe someone else mentioned this) is that I'd rather ave those 6 casualties spread across my 2 stormvirmin. I am finding it very difficult to gain spp with my stormvirmin, even though I'm trying my best to spread the spp around as evenly as possible. They're normally too busy lending guard assists or getting in my opponents way, and are rarely in a good scoring position. So although I don't think very highly of the RO, he has certainly been useful for my current team... so far. If he lives to 31spp without rolling doubles, I'll most likely retire him without replacement. Same deal if he dies or picks up -ST.

[mattgslater]

Porkus, you oughtta call that guy "the Matador."

What I can't believe that nobody mentioned is that a RO gives a rookie Skaven team a 1TTD engine, as the follow-up block can put a defender in behind the line and allow chainpushes to put GRs up into scoring range.

[James_Probert]

What I can't believe that nobody mentioned is that a RO gives a rookie Skaven team a 1TTD engine, as the follow-up block can put a defender in behind the line and allow chainpushes to put GRs up into scoring range.

Pfft, you can do it without the rat ogre easily anyway, so why risk the thing on a 1/6 WA roll?

[Porkus_Maximus]

I would also avoid using the RO for 1TTD pushing because with my luck, I'd end up rolling 3X knockdown precisely when I don't want it. Loner roll will obviously fail, assuming a RR is even available.