How to beat Dwarves & Chaos with Orcs?

[Lord FlashHeart]

Hello all,

I'm new to this forum (love it by the way - lots of useful info) and this is my 1st post. Allow me to take some time to explain the problem before I raise my question...

I'm playing the on-line Cyanide BB version for a while now (used to play tabletop too but sold everything) and I usually play with the softer teams like High Elves, Wood Elves, Dark Elves and Humans but I thought: let's try Orcs for a change.

I did and everything went rather well (20W 4D 7L) until my team reached a TV of around 1800 - 1900. Now I'm facing Chaos and Dwarven teams for about 80% of the time and they're killing my Orcses .

My players get injured/killed a lot more, I usually cannot field 11 players at half time and I cannot win or even draw anymore against these teams.

So the question is: What can I do about it?

I usually form a cage in the middle with a Troll and 4 Black Orcs and slowly shift the cage to 1 of the sidelines. I use the Black Orcs as 'pins' for the cage while the stupid Troll just follows and hopefully puts himself in as much tackle zones as possible. The 4 Blitzers clear the way for the cage to advance and they do the majority of Blitzing.

My team currently consists of 1 Troll, 4 Black Orcs, 4 Blitzers, 2 Throwers, 2 Line-Orcs, an Apo and 4 RR's.

Please let me know if you need more info. Any feedback in welcome !

Lord FlashHeart

[fedelas]

Gave to yours players A LOT OF GUARD skills, try to develop a good passing throwers in order to possibly have a plan b if your cage can't move enough. Try a goblin, if proper used and skilled it can be a pain in the ass for your opponents. Choose to always kick first when possible, so you defend with full team first half and can go for an easier 2-1 grind ( or 1-0).

[DoubleSkulls]

A solid core of Guard/Block black orcs is the key IMO. Dwarves can't really compete against the natural strength, whilst Chaos won't have as many skills as you. Mix that in with a bit of Mighty Blow on Blitzers - targeting Av8 players as much as possible - and you should be okay.

[Lord FlashHeart]

The Troll, 4 Black Orcs and 3 Blitzers all have Guard. The 4th, my Star Blitzer, had Guard too but he was killed last night. He was replaced by a Rookie.

I'm currently skilling my 2 Throwers as the previous one was killed.
I used to play with only 1 Thrower but since a Thrower is basically a Line-Orc with less AV + skills, I'm building 2. One has Block, that's all at the moment. I'm thinking of skilling one for running and short-range passing and the other one for Defense.

Haven't thought about kicking first in such a way though but it might be a good idea. I'll give it a try, thanks !

Personally, I'm not a big fan of gobbo's but it might be worth a try too. Do you see him in a role of a dedicated fouler against these teams? Or rather a receiver/catcher? Or a cannonball for the Troll?

PS: I have a Blitzer with AG 4, Dodge and Sure Hands but he's pretty much always the primary target for opponent killers.

-> Target the AV8 players with Mighty Blow - Check! Haven't done that enough I think.
I currently have 3 players with Mighty Blow, 1 Black Orc and 2 Blitzers, is that enough?

While we're at it, this is how the team looks like now:

4419 Black Orc 1 - Block, Guard, Mighty Blow, Dauntless
4429 Black Orc 2 - Block, Guard, Stand Firm, Juggernaut
4429 Black Orc 3 - Block, Guard, Stand Firm, Grab
4429 Black Orc 4 - Block, Guard, Side Step
4519 Troll - Guard
6339 Blitzer 1 - no skills yet
6339 Blitzer 2 - Guard, Mighty Blow, Tackle
6339 Blitzer 3 - Guard, Mighty Blow
6349 Blitzer 4 - Guard, AG+1, Sure Hands, Dodge
5338 Thrower 1 - Block
5338 Thrower 2 - no skills yet
5339 Line-Orc 1 - Wrestle
5339 Line-Orc 2 - no skills yet

Suggestions/Comments on skill use (now and upcoming) or roles?
I'm thinking of getting 'Kick' on Thrower 2 and he'll function as my defensive thrower.

Lord FlashHeart

[Ullis]

4419 Black Orc 1 - Block, Guard, Mighty Blow, Dauntless
4429 Black Orc 2 - Block, Guard, Stand Firm, Juggernaut
4429 Black Orc 3 - Block, Guard, Stand Firm, Grab
4429 Black Orc 4 - Block, Guard, Side Step

I think Dauntless and Juggernaut were suboptimal picks. Juggernaut only helps when blitzing and black orcs only have move 4 anyway. Dauntless on a ST4 piece is wasted as it only helps against ST4 and ST5 and you can get around it with Guard anyway. It's more of a skill for agile ST3 teams and ST2 players. Both those guys could have Mighty Blow instead! Don't despair though. You have an amazing set of Black Orcs and Block and Guard are probably the most important skills for Black Orcs. Stand Firm and Side step are great too.

The new blitzer could go MB+Piling On. That's only 16 SPP's and with MB and Piling On he can dish out serious pain. Then take a Dirty Player on a lineorc. I don't think goblins make good foulers as they can't get DP easily. Gaining a numerical advantage is the most important aspect of fouling and you need DP for that. Sneaky Git is a skill for the gratuitous fouler and an insurance policy in case of failing to break armour. And while we're at lineorcs I'd avoid Wrestle. Your team doesn't have the necessary speed to gain mileage from downed opponents and you really don't need a wrestler for making sure that you can make a hole somewhere. That's for teams that need to pour fast catchers into the backfield.

Both Dwarf and Chaos (and Orc) teams are prone to getting in trouble if being short of players on the pitch. Losing a few players against another bashy teams leads fast to losing the Guard game. Not getting 2-d blocks off means that you're bound to lose more players quickly too. Against agile teams being short of players means that they can run rings around you.

[Porkus_Maximus]

The biggest problem I see with your team is how you've skilled your black orcs. You only have 1 BoB with mighty blow. IMO, mighty blow should be the prime choice for skill 3 assuming no +ST/doubles are rolled and I might even be tempted to ignore the doubles. Dauntless? Wasted on a ST4 player who should be supported by plenty of guard. Juggernaut? Wasted on a player that is unlikely to blitz often. Grab? Has its uses but not as important as other skills (MIGHTY BLOW!). With only 4 mighty blow players, you're not going to be able to dish out as much damage as you're probably receiving. Dwarf and Chaos teams could have as much as 8 players with mighty blow at your TV, and some of those chaos players probably have claw too.

It's a bit boring, but whenever I skill BoBs I always aim to get them block/guard/mighty blow or block/mighty blow/guard (usually 2 of each) before taking ANY other skills. For short term development I will often ignore any other skill roll, with the exception of +ST. It's nice to get doubles but they don't automatically improve the players role, or help the player contribute to the team.

It's great that you have 4 developed black orcs, since skilling them is probably the toughest part of playing Orcs. It's far more common to see an Orc team that has all it's blitzers on their 4th or 5th skill, while the BoBs trail behind with 2 skills (or less!). You just need to get mighty blow on them ASAP.

[Funksultan]

Ah, the regulars here pretty much gave you all the advice you need. In short, dwarves can't match your raw strength. Block them into the ground if you get half a chance. All other things being equal, it should be a straight up fair fight. Don't run from the conflict though.

Chaos is a little trickier. They match yer strength, but you have more (natural) skills. You should be able to outblock their beastmen, and hopefully put the crunch on them. 2 things to watch for against Chaos...

1. MB / Claw / Both players. Either keep these guys on the ground, or stay away. Claw is the bane of your team, and you do NOT wanna get caught up next to claw players. Find out where they are, and remember it.

2. Specialty players. Chaos will have to have "groomed" a beastman to be the ball handler, and maybe even a strong blitzer. Find these players, and squeeze them. The chaos team relies on these guys to fill their roles, and removing them or locking them down can be a serious hamper to a skill-poor team like Chaos.

[mattgslater]

Hire a Goblin, both as a benchwarmer and as a hurry-up option. Only throw him on turn 8, but foul with him and make your opponent divert attention off your Blitzers to take him out. You'd be surprised how much energy an opponent will put into taking down the AV7/Stunty guy on the AV9 team. Particularly a Chaos team, but that means winning the matchup game.

Skill both Throwers so you have a returner and an outlet. I'd get Accurate on Thrower #2, and either Kick or Dirty Player on Lineman #2.

Otherwise what everybody else said. The only toolbox skills you should consider for a BOB are Grab and maybe Frenzy: otherwise, stick with boring old Block, Guard, Stand Firm and Mighty Blow in any order so long as Block is in the top 2, most of which you've already done. Juggernaut is #5 for a Blitzer, or maybe a #5 on a BOB with Block, Stand Firm, Frenzy and Break Tackle. But even then, I'd want Mighty Blow over Break Tackle, so never mind.

[Carnis]

IF they've fixed piling on and dirty player, then that's what your missing. Other than that, its down to taking novelty skills like grab, jugs and stand firm over mighty blow (&piling on) spam. Get DP on a lino, PO on a MB blitzer (instead of tackle, normally).

Another thing might be coaching skill, probably the lower tiers have less skilled coaches.. The team per say should be able to win against any team as it has all the essentials (lots of block&guard and LOTS of spp on the Bobs).

[Lord FlashHeart]

Thanks all for the feedback!

So, didn't play Dwarves or Chaos the last days, only Dark Elves.
Lost 2 players: Blitzer 2 was thrown to death by a stone from the crowd and Line-Orc 1 was stabbed to death by the evil Elves! Both have been replaced by Rookies. The team now looks like below.
Taking feedback into consideration I'm going for the green skills in the future.

4419 Black Orc 1 - Block, Guard, Mighty Blow, Dauntless, Stand Firm
4429 Black Orc 2 - Block, Guard, Stand Firm, Juggernaut, Mighty Blow
4429 Black Orc 3 - Block, Guard, Stand Firm, Grab, Mighty Blow
4429 Black Orc 4 - Block, Guard, Side Step, Mighty Blow
4519 Troll - Guard
6339 Blitzer 1 - no skills yet + Mighty Blow, Piling On
6339 Blitzer 2 - no skills yet + Mighty Blow, Guard
6339 Blitzer 3 - Guard, Mighty Blow, Tackle
6349 Blitzer 4 - Guard, AG+1, Sure Hands, Dodge
5338 Thrower 1 - Block, Accurate, Kick-Off Return
5338 Thrower 2 - no skills yet + Kick & more defense skills
5339 Line-Orc 1 - no skills yet + Dirty Player, Block
5339 Line-Orc 2 - no skills yet + Block, Tackle

In hindsight, the comment on Wrestle is correct and I'm not going to take that anymore with Orcs. It's sometimes useful if you really need to take out an opponent but that usually works without Wrestle anyway and you keep your movement.

I also agree on the fact that Mighty Blow is generally a better 3rd skill (with Stand Firm) on BoB's but I wanted to do something 'refreshing' for a change, hence the Juggernaut, Grab & Dauntless. I can 'defend' my choices though: Grab to dismantle the opposing cage and put more distance between my cage and the opponent, Dauntless to take out Big Guys or STR4 pieces with a STR increase surrounded by Guards (especially when the Troll goes stupid) and Juggernaut for a very short Blitz to take out an opposing lynchpin and replace it by my own to reform/move Da Kage. But Mighty Blow is probably more useful per game, true.

Perhaps I will try a little sneaky gobbo too.
Suggestions on Blitzer 4? He's nearing another skill-up and I'm unsure what to get him: Fend seems a bit un-Orcy. Strip Ball looks good. Tackle?

The coaching skills might also be true. I'm still learning every game.
Although I don't feel 'outplayed' often it seems to be mainly games when the Dwarves and Chaos players get more players of my team of the pitch than the other way around. That's probably because of my lack of Mighty Blow, although my luck could improve too (see the Throw a Rock incident). Another BIG issue contributing to this problem is that it is not uncommon to face Chaos teams with 5+ players with Claw (and Mighty Blow). It is difficult to get them all of the pitch or staw away from them. And when they start to injure my players, it's like a domino effect...and more and more players get injured.

Well, I'll keep you updated.

Lord FlashHeart

[Ullis]

Strip Ball is never as good as it looks. The skill feels awesome, but it has big practical issues. First, it's negated by Sure Hands. When facing Wood elves with a Strip ball Wardancer you don't give the ball to just anyone to carry. You give it to the player with Sure Hands. That's the reasoning all your opponents are capable of too. Second, you have to reach the ball carrier first to get to use it. For that you need either speed (to get at the ball before it reaches a cage) or super mobility (when the ball does reach a cage) and your orc blitzer, even with AG4 and Dodge doesn't have either. Why not take MB on him too? Tackle could also be ok as you don't have any, but it won't help you against Chaos and Dwarves. I'd also take Piling On for blitzer 3 next.

I understand the reasoning behind wanting to take "strange" skills other than Block, Guard, MB and Stand Firm on the Black Orcs. It's boring and frustrating just taking the same skills over and over. But people usually go for suboptimal skills when they want to set a challenge for themselves (although Grab can be excellent as most people don't see it coming and it has lots of uses, such as setting up gang fouls.)

[Carnis]

Wrestle still has some room on the linemen of an orc team imo.. Against the odd blodge / block player with the ball and when tieing up blocking players. I use wrestle on zombies and rotters too, although its better on skaven linemen..

[mattgslater]

Ullis missed another issue with Strip Ball. Even when it works, the ball is still in a tackle zone. This is a big deal for team races with names not ending in "elf".

[Pagan]

Personally, I'm not a big fan of gobbo's but it might be worth a try too. Do you see him in a role of a dedicated fouler against these teams? Or rather a receiver/catcher? Or a cannonball for the Troll?

I think people always undervalue the goblin just because he is named that. If he was an Orc Catcher with those stats he'd be played way more. But compare the goblin to many other catchers, and he looks much better than them. Dodge on an orc team, not much of that. And Stunty has an upside along with its downside. Don't forget how he can jump through tackle zones with a fair chance at making it.

Then there is always setting him up next to the troll and a kickoff going out of bounds fun.

[DoubleSkulls]

Ullis missed another issue with Strip Ball. Even when it works, the ball is still in a tackle zone. This is a big deal for team races with names not ending in "elf".

That's why you want frenzy on your strip ballers!