Dwarf tactic thread.

Ancalagon · Post by **Ancalagon** » Mon Jan 13, 2003 6:30 pm

Death: I know which are the best teams for that tournament, and I don't see yours between them

In fact I only play dwarfs for one reason... I want to play against you, maybe I won't win but sure I'll bore you a lot!

Mestari · Post by **Mestari** » Mon Jan 13, 2003 7:31 pm

martynq wrote: Oh yeah, the mistake I keep making - keep your runner in the cage.

They always go down if you try to make a run for it. Either they are blitzed or they fall on a gfi. Better stay in the cage and score slower if you can't make it to the EZ that turn.

Still - dwarves can score quick if a need arises - you can try this Decoy Offence from my Playbook of Grudges:

The Dwarven Decoy Pass Offence
-------------------------------------
Turn 1: Divide to two teams, both of which has one runner.
Team 1: Make a hole, make a semi-cage to his side of the field. Cage has the following properties: runner 8 squares from the EZ, other players placed so that you should be able to free the runner for a dash next turn.
Team 2: Runner gets the ball, but stays firmly on your side of the pitch to lure your opponent to think you're not going to score. The rest protect the perimeter of the runner and make sure he has a clear path for a pass next turn.

Turn 2:
Team 1: The others clear a path for the runner and secure in case of a failed catch or pass.
Team 2: The others clear a path for a pass. Runner makes a pass action and throws the ball to the other runner, which makes a run to the EZ

The summarised point is:
Turn: Make it possible to score, but make it look like you're not going to score.
Turn 2: Score.

Usually your opponent is going to expect the long cage offence, and will not pay enough attention to the possible 2-turn TD. Having a reroll available is encouraged when attempting this stunt.

An example of this in use:
The first game of my dwarven team was against slightly experienced chaos that hurt me quite bad. I managed to score with only 7 dwarves on the pitch using this tactic. I advanced the group up the sideline, with the runner exactly the running distance from the EZ, and scored the next turn as my opponent overlooked the possibility of a passing game by dwarves...

wesleytj · Post by **wesleytj** » Tue Jan 14, 2003 1:26 am

Deathwing wrote:<TROLL WARNING>
I'll be surprised when (if!!) Dwarves ever win any Tourney. They're undoubtedly good out of the box, but they seem destined to be coached by guys more worried about protecting their personal reputation than going for the big prize..sorta the ' I know I can't win with dwarves but they're a safe option and I know I'll do OK with them'.
Still...about sums up the mentality of specialist Dwarf coaches..
</TROLLING>

It's all about the coach, man. I have never made a dwarf team as I consider that style of play too boring, however I'm quite certain I can make a winning team. This is especially true now that the cards are gone. Here's what I'd do every time:

Kick off in the 1st half, let the opponent score quickly. Persuade them to score quickly if they're obstinate. Then spend the rest of the 1st half grinding them to bits and scoring in turn 8. No Burst ball or Lurve potion or whatever to thwart you. Then spend the 2nd half pounding and pounding some more and score in turn 8 of the 2nd half. You win 2-1 EVERY TIME, as long as you can pick up the ball, then protect it against ever dwindling opposition...your av9 and thickskull should ensure numerical superiority on the pitch over anybody.

It may be the most boring strategy ever, but I'm pretty sure a good coach could win a tourney that way.

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Tue Jan 14, 2003 1:45 am

Thats easy enough to counter, how many turns do the dwarfs need to reliably score? How will that work all the time against other bashing sides. I have often won 2-1 against dwarfs with my undead using the same tactics so clearly it doesn't work everytime. Also beaten it with skaven, a deep kick on my kick off and 2 gutter runners to run down and harass the ball carrier and sawrm around to prevent the cage forming. Against a good coach with any side there isn't a guarenteed method of winning.

Deathwing · Post by **Deathwing** » Tue Jan 14, 2003 3:51 am

wesleytj wrote:
Deathwing wrote:<TROLL WARNING>
I'll be surprised when (if!!) Dwarves ever win any Tourney. They're undoubtedly good out of the box, but they seem destined to be coached by guys more worried about protecting their personal reputation than going for the big prize..sorta the ' I know I can't win with dwarves but they're a safe option and I know I'll do OK with them'.
Still...about sums up the mentality of specialist Dwarf coaches..
</TROLLING>

It's all about the coach, man. I have never made a dwarf team as I consider that style of play too boring, however I'm quite certain I can make a winning team. This is especially true now that the cards are gone. Here's what I'd do every time:

Kick off in the 1st half, let the opponent score quickly. Persuade them to score quickly if they're obstinate. Then spend the rest of the 1st half grinding them to bits and scoring in turn 8. No Burst ball or Lurve potion or whatever to thwart you. Then spend the 2nd half pounding and pounding some more and score in turn 8 of the 2nd half. You win 2-1 EVERY TIME, as long as you can pick up the ball, then protect it against ever dwindling opposition...your av9 and thickskull should ensure numerical superiority on the pitch over anybody.

It may be the most boring strategy ever, but I'm pretty sure a good coach could win a tourney that way.

Sound tactics. You forgot the 'move every player on the field one square forwards/backwards while your opponent is asleep' play though.

Seriously though..one turnover (though a Blitz on the KO table...double skulls..failing to pick it up..etc) on a Dwarf team will generally leave them screwed if the (inevitable..boring...obligatory) tactics are employed.
And you'd have to be lucky as well as good to win a tourney with Dwarves, there's an awful lot of quality coaches out there who can handle usual Dwarf snorebore tactics very well thank-you-very-much.
I maintain that if you're gonna bring a Dwarf team to the table and play stock Dwarf clock-bash tactics then you'll either draw with or lose to the quality coaches more often than not. And while you're grinding out the 1-0 or 2-1 wins other teams will be putting 3 or 4 on the board...

Having said that.... I guess I concur really...how about:
'Dwarves will have trouble winning Tournaments because they're simply too boring for the top level coaches..'?

KnuckleGutKiller · Post by **KnuckleGutKiller** » Tue Jan 14, 2003 4:55 am

Ok everyone has been doing posts on this one... But its all really the same KILL, KILL, KILL and thats what your opponent expects I suggest one runner with sure feet & sprint you then will be moving 9 squares!! and thats damm good for a dwarf and this will balance out you game!! Yes KILL, KILL & KILL somemore but win the damm game also and with a really slow game thats not going to happen often. Hey I love killing but then when he has no players I love to win as well!

All the above posts are great but get a runner that can score and do some damage

Ancalagon · Post by **Ancalagon** » Tue Jan 14, 2003 8:16 am

Well, let's do this: instead of talking about how good or bad are Dwarves we should talk about tactics, not only cages and hit till die (now this becames a "dwarf_coach_eyes_only" topic, so please, deathwing go away with your undeads or watewer you take... -just kidding

-).

Let's discuss possible tactics against different teams we could face at blood bowl:

1) Undeads with luthor:
Usually this kind of team rely on luthor's hability to keep safe the ball while mummis hit and destroy the other team (pile on). They usually take zombies to keep entertained big guys and other players that can be embarrasing for them.

2) humans with griff, zug, morg and luthor:
I think this is the worst team we could face; luthor keeps the ball and griff scores. If the team has all the stars he won't have RR so there's some chance to fail, but using 3 of those stars they'll have 1 RR. Usually zug is the perfect substitute for an ogre (same price, he doesn't have Bonehead and has block).

3) fast teams; wood elves, skavens, lizardmen:
both first teams can have one ST player to open a hole (rat ogre/treeman). I think elves are a bit more expensive but their ag 4 makes each player able to make a good move. Usually they score on 2 turns quite easy making "handoff_pass" moves. On Skavens the weak point are runners, they are quite ag but lack of strenght, woodies usually send wardancers into op. field. Wardancers are good breaking cages. Lizards are hard for dwarves... although they have ag1 on most players, their st makes difficult to open their "scaly cage" and skinks score really fast (I coached lizards for a long time I know what I say, and believe me, the worst nightmare for a lizard coach is a wood elf team).

4) strong teams; orcs, chaos, chaos dwarfs, dwarfs:
We are going to see some varag/morg teams, chaos has good star list although is quite expensive and using them will reduce amount of CW. Chaos dwarves have HTark although their effective ball carriers are hobgoblins, due ag 2 makes difficult to score for centaurs.
Facing another dwarf team seems ugly.

Amazons, norse:
Amazons have dodge skill, although people said it's useless against dwarves I only field 4 longbeards on my team! and their cheap price makes RR really affordable for this team. As norse they mo of 6 makes them faster than us.
Norse have block and this always annoys.
Although av sux on both teams but again cheap prices allow to have 12 or more players. They don't have stars.

Those are the descriptions of teams, which would be your tactics against them? please forget "what if" discussions, just talk about tactics with possibilities of working and forget failing on easy rolls...

Norse · Post by **Norse** » Tue Jan 14, 2003 8:18 am

KnuckleGutKiller wrote:All the above posts are great but get a runner that can score and do some damage

and he will get mauled every game with AV8 and no starting block..

to answer DeathWing though, who is clearly looking for a fight (and, as far as I'm concerned, he's looking in the right place) I resent the comments about dull tactics and boring coaches... The Dwarf lineup is limited and using it well can be difficult. The players have stats to support a grinding game. If any Dwarf coach went for a long-bomb dodging game we would all scratch our heads a bit, as he clearly doesn't understand probability...

Sure, they are usually a casualty team and, a lack of pace means they struggle to score quickly and, if they lose the ball, they tend to concede quick TDs...

That said, at T5 I scored 2 touchdowns in the last 5 turns to rescue a game against BigD. They can score as quickly as any other team if they roll well enough and perhaps more Stunty coaches should be more adventurous with their style of play...

I have nothing to be ashamed of DW... I'm sorry if other Dwarf coaches have made dull games for you in the past. I'd like to think our 0-0 draw at T5 is the most exciting draw you ever played in!

KnuckleGutKiller · Post by **KnuckleGutKiller** » Tue Jan 14, 2003 8:27 am

I disagree Aclagon(??) I think a runner with sprint, surehands, & sure feet is a good thing for a Dwarf team and has helped me win games with a dwarf team. bust a hole on the side and run your runner down the field with one or two assists. all you have to do is get on the other side of the board and its over!

As far as the standard cage goes I just need to move 2 or three apaces off the pitch in a cage then I pass it off to the player in front of me (in front of the cage) and run and score.... After I have killed several of my opponents players

Ancalagon · Post by **Ancalagon** » Tue Jan 14, 2003 8:34 am

KnuckleGutKiller wrote:I disagree Aclagon(??) I think a runner with sprint, surehands, & sure feet is a good thing for a Dwarf team and has helped me win games with a dwarf team.

I won't have this player at resurrection. Only 1 skill per player allowed.
But at our league I have 2 mo 7 runners.

KnuckleGutKiller · Post by **KnuckleGutKiller** » Tue Jan 14, 2003 10:50 am

2 mo 7 runners what do you mean??

I see your point for tournements if you can only get one skill... I am not that caliber yet so I wont be there. However I am sure there alot of you dieing to kick my butt in person right snott

Ancalagon · Post by **Ancalagon** » Tue Jan 14, 2003 11:00 am

I meant my two runner got +1 mo. Now one got block and the other nerves of steel.

KnuckleGutKiller · Post by **KnuckleGutKiller** » Tue Jan 14, 2003 11:10 am

yea I thought about nerves of steel on one runner but having a team with 2 runners. How do you use this skill to your advantage and when. Whats your set up with it?

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Tue Jan 14, 2003 1:06 pm

Hmm Korhil had a dwarf team with 2 ag4 runners in fumbbl they were a right pain.