Claw - any armour roll of 8 or more

[funnyfingers]

This could be a thread all its own, but I think claw, mighty blow, and piling on individually are valued correctly, but together they would definitely be worth more than the 60K that they combine to be. This is also true of block, dodge, sidestep. I think that these combinations really should add something to their TV, but it would be harder to calculate by hand. Also of course claw is completely useless against wood elves, yet still effective against one member of their team and possibly others that choose +AV. Block and dodge can be broken with a wrestle/tackler but it is not like you'd have many of these guys on the field anyway.

[Wylder]

Just a bit of anecdotal evidence.

I played a team last night in Cyanide's game. It was the team ranked 12th worldwide at the time, called "The MBPOClawers". I'm sure you can guess what the team was like. TR was ~220 from memory.

The game was a tough one, especially considering my 180TR at the time, but I beat them quite handily. I suppose more importantly, I took 8 casualties while he took none. These cas were somewhat normally distributed, being 3 deaths (one apothed to BH), one stat loss, one MNG and 3 BHs.

The game cost me 150k to replace lost or broken linos. It could easily have cost me 200k+ if more important guys had taken the deaths or the apoth had failed to save the rat ogre. Luckily I had the cash to back me up and am able to keep going. In a different situation it's quite possible I would be working with journeymen for my next game.

Obviously if I had to play this team 5 times in a row I wouldn't have a team left, but leagues don't work that way. The team itself is not broken. However if leagues get themselves into a position where any reasonable proportion of teams are built this way, then yes it's going to be a shitty league. I don't necessarily think thats a problem with the game though. Killer teams like this are an asset to BB since they provide terrifying matches where you are just glad to be alive at the end. These teams don't necessarily win more than they should. I am especially comfortable with them in small fixed-draw leagues such as the ones I generally play tabletop, because everyone has to play them eventually and they really only win about as much as anyone else.

[Grumbledook]

yes but those killer teams in leagues would play each other and bring each other down as well

and as you said, it is still not a problem and you won the match

on cyanide I believe it matches your games up via TV as well, so you won't be playing a vastly more advanced team

though even if you did you can hire extra apothecaries to deal with the harsher stuff

[Wylder]

All true.

I might have been better off with extra apothecaries, but I don't think I would have won. Headsplitter was fundamental in getting my turnover TD.

I play to win.

[Smeborg]

This could be a thread all its own, but I think claw, mighty blow, and piling on individually are valued correctly, but together they would definitely be worth more than the 60K that they combine to be. This is also true of block, dodge, sidestep. I think that these combinations really should add something to their TV, but it would be harder to calculate by hand. Also of course claw is completely useless against wood elves, yet still effective against one member of their team and possibly others that choose +AV. Block and dodge can be broken with a wrestle/tackler but it is not like you'd have many of these guys on the field anyway.

Claw/M-Blow/P-On will only occur in a reasonably developed team, especially in any quantity. The combination is highly effective against other bash teams with high armour, but relatively ineffective against teams with low armour, lots of Blodge, Wrodge and/or Fend. It's part of the paper/scissors/rock combination game which has been always been with us, but has become more intense since 5th Ed. There are counters to Block/Dodge/Sidestep, such as Tackle, Wrestle, Grab, fouling etc.

Combinations of 3 or more acquired skills are heavy to carry in terms of TV. Expensive slayer teams can be countered, at least in part, by inducements such as Wandering Apothecaries, Babes, the Wizard, etc. Up to 3 Apothecaries plus 2 Babes is quite good protection, if your main aim is simply to survive the game.

[Storch]

well, its not that I don't like Claw as it is ... it's just that there is an imbalance to the access of that killing ability.

Sure, the killing teams might not dominate the ranks (the do get to play against each other of course) ... and playing the game you often forget to score to win when you are busy trying to kill

... anyway, its the lack of "equal" access to the ability to kill which was opened to chaos and nurgle specifically. Claws on a double wasn't all that bad ... and not allowing claw + mb to mix is still a good combination, thats all I am saying.

I would point out only that those same teams don't have access to any players with MV 7 or higher like the elves do. Would you suggest that we boost those as well?

Alternately, maybe we should embrace the fact that the teams have different access and that's what gives them character?

My own experience was two season ago in what has gone down in the history of our league simply as "the bashy season" (Chaos, Nurgle, 3 Orcs, 2 Dwarves, 2 Lizardmen, and a couple others). During that time I found that the value of the 'killers' was woefully exaggerated. By the end I had one beastman, the Mino, and one Warrior who I was still working on. The Mino was the league leader for Cas, but that came at a price (Wild Animal). A lot of beastmen gave up the ghost before I could get one that skilled and I was still working on the killer warrior when I put the team on the back burner.

The The one thing that I thin a lot of players overlook is that a Cas does not equal a kill or even a stat loss. Even when the team I mentioned above had at least block two if not three skills on almost every beastmen, a beastman that thought he was a wardancer (block, dodge, AG+, leap), and 40 games under their belt, I trailed the Dwarves in casualties. Looking back, most of those casualties were BH or miss next game.

When I played the dwarves, we both left blodied a bit, me with an ex-beastman and him with two stat losses and us both having a couple players out for the next game, but no kills on either side. I really have to say that once you factor in inducements, Claw is no where near as bad as people make it out to be. I think people just don't feel comfortable with skills that alter the premise of the game. Stabbers tend to get targeted because of the threat they pose, not becasue ofthe actual performance which mostly falls well short of the threat. Same idea.

[DoubleSkulls]

Claw/M-Blow/P-On will only occur in a reasonably developed team, especially in any quantity.

For people playing on Cyanide where you can easily play several games a day the level of development isn't an issue. So a "rarity" factor argument that exists for TT leagues doesn't apply for Cyanide.

Basically if you know you are playing Claw/MB/PO teams then build for it. Fend stops Piling On (and is useful otherwise). Claw/MB only work if they can knock you down - so blodge. Also loading on Guard and/or Dauntless o keep them on their backs helps.

When blocking against Beastmen MB/PO gives pretty good results

And of course Av7 teams love seeing all that TV in useless skills like Claw

[Ravenal]

It's all about the kill statistics you are aiming for versus the value spent to increase your percentages.

When going for the MB/PO/Claw combo you'll be wanting at least Block ... and then targeting high AV players that normally don't have Dodge. IMO Block/MB/Claw is "enough" because I like my players on their feet for defense next turn.

So, the basic % are (rounded):
AV 7 : 42% chance to break
AV 8 : 28% chance to break
AV 9 : 17% chance to break
AV10 : 8% chance to break

The chance to cause a casualty is 1/6, or the same as breaking AV9:
AV 7 : 7% chance to cause a casualty
AV 8 : 4,6%
AV 9 : 2,8%
AV10: 1,4%

Adding claw only to the mix means you always have a 7% chance to do a cas.

Right, MB without Claw (the standard upgrade)
AV 7 : 10,6% chance to cause a casualty
AV 8 : 7%
AV 9 : 4,6%
AV10 : 2,5%

not a terribly good upgrade from no skill at all, but an upgrade it is.

So, MB+Claw
... same as having AV7 with MB or 10,6%

*EDIT* fixed some keyboard mishaps ... i hope

10% of successful blocks resulting in a casualty for that player ... this is BB yes, but is this the % you want (ignoring PO) to result in casualties? The "problem" here is that the low AV teams usually have an easy access out by dodging out of TZs, limiting the bashy teams to 1 block through blitz a turn where bashy teams will have to suffer, and in a league where you have for example two of those teams everyone else has to play against 2 claw teams where the claw teams only have to play one game (always one less at least) ...

Not allowing claw and MB to mix gives you:
AV 7 : 10% chance to cause casualty (just the MB)
AV 8 : 7%
AV 9 : 7%
AV10: 7%

Limiting Claw to AV9 (9+ armor roll) with no mixing:
AV 7 : 10% chance to cause casualty (just the MB)
AV 8 : 6%
AV 9 : 4,6% (mixing ups this number to 7%)
AV10: 4,6% (same for this number if MB and claw work togeather)

So, about 1% upgrade from having MB vs AV9 and 2% from not having any skill, 3% upgrade against AV10, almost 2% vs having MB. I think that's closer to balanced rather than the 10,6% (9% increase over no skill).

So, why AV 9? ... well, first of all its the maximum base armor ... claw would be negating any AV upgrades chosen by that player. AV8 is too common to be a target specific players skill which is what MB is. Two universal damage skills (again, not counting PO here which has drawbacks) is overdoing it imo. One universal damage skill and one "targeted" skill should be sufficient.

Why no mixing? Punch and clip? Mighty claw? It's all about the targeted percentages really.

[Storch]

While I disagree with the basic premise that claw+MB needs any fixing at all, allow me to turn the question around to hopefully illustrate exactly why it doesn't need any changing.

Now assume for a minute that we change things exactly as suggested. This will effectively make AV9 teams stronger as they will now not have the leading cause of player turnover to worry about. Taken to its logical end this would actually lead to stringer, more skilled bashy teams, rather than having players die to claw.

I guess my question is this, if you had to play a bashy team with a TV in the neighborhood of 1.9M, which would you rather see, a team with a pair of players who are dedicated killers with MB+Claw or would you like to see a much more vanilla MB+Guard across the line?

The thing I think people are forgetting is that people take Claws because it does something. If you reduce what it does, you will get to a point where people won't take it anymore. For example, in your example of limiting it to AV9, I would not waste a skill on something that situationally gives me a 1% bonus. It just isn't worth it. If you consider that the skill is limited in access and is only useful against a fraction of the players in the game, I thin kyou will see that it needs to be powerful or else it would be in the same category as Pass Block, a skill that is so situation and of such marginal use due to its being dependent on your opponent that it could be erased from the rulebook with few players even noticing.

[Ravenal]

If you consider that the skill is limited in access and is only useful against a fraction of the players in the game

23% of positions in the game have AV9

I would not waste a skill on something that situationally gives me a 1% bonus.

MB gives you less than 1% (chance to cause casualty) for players with AV9+ ... having claw only work for that AV and higher gives you the same bonus in % to cause a casualty as MB does against AV7 and AV8
AV7 + MB = 3,6% increase in chance to cause a casualty
AV8 + MB = 2,7% ...
AV9 + claw = 1,8% ...
AV10 + claw = 3,2% ...

AV9 + MB = 0,9% ...
AV10 + MB = 0.45%

... so Claw at AV9 has double the chances of causing a casualty over MB. Still, at that level allowing them to mix isn't such a big deal (7% chance to cause a casualty which is less than AV7+MB but less than AV8+MB)

right, given the situational stuff (23% of player positions) and all, mixing claw and MB should be fine if an armor roll of 9+ (instead of 8+) penetrates all armor. That gives:
AV7 + MB = 10,6% chance to cause a casualty
AV8 + claw + MB = 7%
AV9 + claw + MB = 7,7%
AV10 + claw +MB = 7,7%

Here claw is specifically giving you better chances of hurting high AV players (remember: only works against 23% of the player positions) while not changing AV8 chances.

arr... again calcs made while holding onto a squirming 3 month old... but the basics are correct.

[funnyfingers]

Here is my killer team. I slaughtered 1500 TV Lizardman team in some practice games:)

http://www.stuntyleeg.com/index.php?sec ... obj_id=521

[funnyfingers]

Though I must say my practice match against 1500 TV Wood Elves was an utter failure, haha.

[PubBowler]

23% of positions in the game have AV9

23% of posistions yes but not 23% of players.

Your list included big guys etc who are a minority of their respective tiers.

[funnyfingers]

Seems some people are not realizing that Claw does work on AV8 and along with MB is basically +1 to both armor and injury against AV8. I can't say what percentage that is, but there are a lot AV8 players total.

[Storch]

PubBowler, Thank you. I was waiting for someone to point that out.

Putting the math aside, every skill in bloodbowl is situational to some extent. There are some like Block and Dodge that are more useful because the situations that they are used come up far more often i a normal game. There are others such as Pass Block that come up so infrequently as to limit their consideration.

My point was simply that Claws in squarely in the middle. It will come up some times and have a decent effect when it does.

Another thing to consider is that most of the players who can get it will rarely take it as a first skill (I'm thinking Chaos Warriors of whatever flavor here) and are comparatively slow to develop. Given that, I would expect a skill which is situational in it's application to have a big effect just to balance out how much effort went into getting it.