Tweaking teams after LRB6

[plasmoid]

Gee mister dwarf star player, that's such an accurate portrayal of what I'm saying.

[Purplegoo]

Martin, you seem to be posting far more since you quit; the interweb is an addictive substance.

[voyagers_uk]

Gee mister dwarf star player, that's such an accurate portrayal of what I'm saying.

ROFL, Martin, you absolutely cannot go.... I need you to deflate my ego at times...

[plasmoid]

Hi Pgoo,
it is indeed
But I'm slowly phasing out my habit.
I used to go to 3 BB forums. I've quit one completely, I'll be off TFF once this thread has run it's course - and I'll stay on MBBL (where I admin).

Voyagers - you're always welcome back in the MBBL. I'll be more than happy to exchange rude comments with you there
Hey - maybe I could even run you over with some wrestle dwarfs in a tournament...

Cheers
Martin

[spubbbba]

Undead: Zombies gain decay (and become 0-2 with ST-access)
Dwarfs: Slayers replace block with juggernaut. (Blockers become 80K 0-2, new lineman = old blockers without Block)

I really disagree that Undead and Dwarfs need such a nerf. Both teams really struggle at higher TV's and this never seems to be taken into account.

If you take Block away from Longbeards then they should drop to 50K as they are pretty much worthless with MA4 and AG2. How about giving them 0-4 runners so the team is a little more interesting to play with and against?

I wish the Cyanide game could make data available it would be interesting to see how the tiers change at various TV ranges.

[plasmoid]

Hi Spubbbba,

I really disagree that Undead and Dwarfs need such a nerf. Both teams really struggle at higher TV's and this never seems to be taken into account.

Fair enough. These ideas are for leagues that do agree that they need a nerf.
But their late development struggle has been considered.
To wit: The LRB5/6 data that I've collected has them doing very good - better than 55 Win-percentage. If they truly struggle as bad as you say at high TV, then that drags down their stats, meaning that they're considerably better than the 55 in low TV play!! Crazy, IMO.

(Besides, even if they become weaker sides in late development - there are still teams weaker than them, they aren't trailing enough to be ruined, and they can dump TV to their prime level and enjoy the inducements).

If you take Block away from Longbeards then they should drop to 50K as they are pretty much worthless with MA4 and AG2.

Not agreed. Many linemen do fine just by sucking up damage. Orc linemen and zombies are good value for money. Dwarfs linemen would still be super at sucking up damage - and have tackle - and have access to S-skills. 60K seems fair.

How about giving them 0-4 runners so the team is a little more interesting to play with and against?

I'd have to take a hatchet to the rest of the team first
Or you could just start an inspiration-thread like this one, with suggested buffs for undead+dwarfs (and whatever else you consider weak in late development).

Cheers
Martin

[spubbbba]

Hi Spubbbba,

I really disagree that Undead and Dwarfs need such a nerf. Both teams really struggle at higher TV's and this never seems to be taken into account.

Fair enough. These ideas are for leagues that do agree that they need a nerf.
But their late development struggle has been considered.
To wit: The LRB5/6 data that I've collected has them doing very good - better than 55 Win-percentage. If they truly struggle as bad as you say at high TV, then that drags down their stats, meaning that they're considerably better than the 55 in low TV play!! Crazy, IMO.

(Besides, even if they become weaker sides in late development - there are still teams weaker than them, they aren't trailing enough to be ruined, and they can dump TV to their prime level and enjoy the inducements).

Those stats are only for 1000 Undead and 1500 Dwarf league games, they give no indication of the quality of the respective coaches, the team TV's or what races they played against. If you are going to use win % to determine what teams are changed I'd want at least 1000 against each race at different TV ratings (at least 1000, 1500, 2000).

Though i expect that the vast majority of those games are under 150 TV where Dwarfs are Undead are 2 of the strongest races and even when they start to tail off above 175 they are still in the top half so should have a good win rate. Though Orcs are the strongest basher race and one of the top teams at any TV.

If you take Block away from Longbeards then they should drop to 50K as they are pretty much worthless with MA4 and AG2.

Not agreed. Many linemen do fine just by sucking up damage. Orc linemen and zombies are good value for money. Dwarfs linemen would still be super at sucking up damage - and have tackle - and have access to S-skills. 60K seems fair.

But they will take forever to skill up, just like Zombies and Black Orcs so the S access is less useful. Thick skull is ok ok skill to have as staying on the pitch is always good but tackle is hard to work out as against some teams it's amazing and against others worthless.
Maybe 60K and swapping Block for Passblock to make them a little less crap on defence.

How about giving them 0-4 runners so the team is a little more interesting to play with and against?

I'd have to take a hatchet to the rest of the team first
Or you could just start an inspiration-thread like this one, with suggested buffs for undead+dwarfs (and whatever else you consider weak in late development).

Cheers
Martin

I'd say removing block from slayers and Longbeards is a pretty huge hatchet job, you now have a team that can't pass, dodge or even bash very well. All they can do is stay on the pitch.

My main point is that teams change in power as they gain TV so if you want to balance a team that is powerful at the start by taking something away you have to make sure you don't make them rubbish at higher TV's.

I liked the changes for undead from LRB4 to 5 where mummies lost G access and zombies went up to 40K which made undead less strong at low TV and made skeltons a viable choice. But wights gained S access to make up for the lack of guard at higher TV.

Hmm, just had an idea that undead could lose free zombies (and necro keep them), it is a cool rule but maybe make them have to be bought at a discount (say 20K) or start with 1 SPP.

[slup]

I will throw in some interesting ideas (at least to me) to improve goblins, halflings and vampires without changing stats or lineup.

1) Allow for long pass TTM with Strong Arm
2) Move regenerate roll to before apothecary
3) Remove always hungry in general of for goblins only

1) It is all but impossible to make a 1-turn TD with the slow halflings and snotlings without long pass. Linking it to strong arm makes it less likely to be used by orcs or underworld.
2) Removes the dilemma of whether or not to apply an apo to a vampire making the team stay much longer without injuries. Only other race to benefit is orcs, chaos marauder or underworld, but only when the troll is injured, which by my experience happens once every 15 to 20 games, so not that much of a big deal. Injured vampires are much more frequent.
3) Allways hungry is just destructive for the goblin TTM game with no real value. Why keep it on an underdog team? TTM is hard enough as it is.

[lerchey]

Re: Nerfing Dwarves. The ones I played in the most recent league are the second dwarf team I played. First one did pretty damned well too.

I don't think that removing Block from the Longbeard/Blockers would significantly nerf the team. They still have Thick Skull (surprising how many times that seemed to save my boys from being KO'd!) and Tackle. Tackle in somewhat inferior to block, but not by tons. Negates use of dodge skill - both in Defender Stumbles (16.6% on a one die block) and in failed dodges - sucking up opponents re-rolls. I think that that fits the dwarves better than block, and having both on starting *linemen* just feels cheesey.

Further, despite their abysmal movement (4), I've done pretty well with keeping them good position during games. They won't skill up AS fast as they do with Block, but I don't think it'll be a huge difference. Most line don't start with block. And I'd make Chaos Dwarves follow suit to be consistent.

I like dwarves. I still think that they're way too good for the price.

[Patchwork]

For a house rule nerf for Dwarves I like the idea of juggernaut replacing block on Slayers, although the first skill will just be block. I don't like the idea of wrestle as much. I also really dislike the idea of wrestle on the dwarf linesmen, would make them even slower and more boring.

[lerchey]

Oh, I agree on not giving Dwarves Wrestle. Wrestle is better for players that can stand up and do something after they take someone to the ground. And AV 9 players really are better off with both down being both down in most cases anyway.

[plasmoid]

Hi Spubbbba,

Those stats are only for 1000 Undead and 1500 Dwarf league games

Actually, if you add up the LRB5 and the LRB5+ data (which is almost identical (because of the microscopic nerfs they got), it's almost 1400 and over 2100 respectively.

they give no indication of the quality of the respective coaches, the team TV's or what races they played against. If you are going to use win % to determine what teams are changed I'd want at least 1000 against each race at different TV ratings (at least 1000, 1500, 2000).

Which I guess is the same as saying you'd be happy to wait 10 years.
You're welcome to distrust the numbers. It's a classic.
But it might be worth to consider if there is any obvious reason that they should be wrong - other than the fact that they don't match up with your own experience. Obviously they do correspond with the experience with all of those many leagues/coaches who submitted the data. Do you play outside of FUMBBL? I don't ask because it is FUMBBL, but because it is not LRB4.
And as the data was collected over a 2 year period from 35 different leagues, I have no reason to believe that the best coaches accidentally gravitated towards the dwarfs in a majority of them.

Though i expect that the vast majority of those games are under 150 TV where Dwarfs are Undead are 2 of the strongest races and even when they start to tail off above 175 they are still in the top half so should have a good win rate.

Yes, they probably are. I'm OK with that as all teams in every league will go through that early stage - so being über powerful at this stage is the worst time to be überpowerful.
But, seriously, your statement underlines just why I think the dwarf and undead teams are spoiled rotten!
When they trail off, they're still in the top half?! Then what's all the moaning about?

I'd rather have a team that starts in the top half, stays there for quite a while, and then dips to slightly below average than I'd have a team that starts as sickeningly powerful and then dips (oooh) to the top half of the teams.

But they will take forever to skill up, just like Zombies and Black Orcs so the S access is less useful.

But as we all know, they'll eventually catch up to the faster teams, because dwarfs are so much better at surviving. Their SPP count is hardly ever reset. If a dwarf lineman "only" reaches block and guard, then he's still one heck of a lineman.

I'd say removing block from slayers and Longbeards is a pretty huge hatchet job, you now have a team that can't pass, dodge or even bash very well. All they can do is stay on the pitch.

Have you seen some of the other teams?
I think you're dramatically overestimating what is being done.
I also think that adding 2 more runners would end up buffing the team rather than nerfing it.

Don't forget - slayers get juggernaut instead. I've seen a lot of dwarf coaches taking jugger on one slayer anyway, so the loss isn't that big. They'll take block first skill I'm sure.

As for the poor longbeards - they get to keep 2 with block. So they're an 8 positional team. With 4 block players. They've lost block off 3 pitch players + the bench. Given how well they currently perform, I think they'll manage just fine.

Cheers
Martin

[plasmoid]

Hi Lerchey,

Wrestle is better for players that can stand up and do something after they take someone to the ground.

Sure - but I thought it would be better than having nothing.
I gave them wrestle rather than nothing to cut down on the dwarven whining, beard pulling and gnashing of teeth.

And AV 9 players really are better off with both down being both down in most cases anyway.

Not when the hitter has block!
Or when a turnover would kill you.
And when you are in a situation where you'd really rather not have wrestle... - using wrestle isn't mandatory, so you can always just go down.

See? Quite useful.
Cheers
Martin

[Jural]

sample size = 2
conclusion = Dwarves overpowered
EUREKA!

Wow, he doubled the average sample size which is behind most conclusions reached on this forum!

[spubbbba]

Which I guess is the same as saying you'd be happy to wait 10 years.
You're welcome to distrust the numbers. It's a classic.
But it might be worth to consider if there is any obvious reason that they should be wrong - other than the fact that they don't match up with your own experience. Obviously they do correspond with the experience with all of those many leagues/coaches who submitted the data.

If only the cyanide game had stats available then it'd actually be some use. Well FUMBBL is talking about bringing in a LRB5 client this year so that will provide a lot of data and the rules will be stretched to breaking point. Sadly it will be all too late to change anything, i seriously doubt we'll ever have a LRB7 as GW look to be taking it back in house and then sitting on it.

It's not so much the numbers i distrust, more the methodology of collecting them, the sample size and interpretation of them. I see quite a lot of varience in the individual stats supplied by the different leagues which is to be expected. But without knowing the variables it's hard to draw a real conclusion from them. With such small sample sizes then it's very possible to have some results outside the norm. Maybe more good players use dwarfs in those leagues, or they are in leagues that take a lot of dodge, or all the established coaches have dwarfs and are beating on rookie teams as new players join the league.

Whilst the rankings in the cyanide game and FUMBBL are flawed they can provide a bit of an indication of skill. The dwarf stats drop about 5% in the NAF tourneys where things are equal in terms of TV and you are more likely to face a coach of your own standard.

I notice you've not boosted Orcs despite them having a lower win rate than chaos. I don't think any experinced coach would consider Orcs to be in the bottom 1/3 of the races in terms of power. How do you explain that?

Do you play outside of FUMBBL? I don't ask because it is FUMBBL, but because it is not LRB4.
And as the data was collected over a 2 year period from 35 different leagues, I have no reason to believe that the best coaches accidentally gravitated towards the dwarfs in a majority of them.

I've played most versions of BB throughout the years both TT and online. In fact 4 of those MBBL wins (2 norse, 1 undead and 1 dwarf) are me
Sadly I don't get to play as much TT as I'd like these days, only about a dozen games (6 of those at the GT) last year and the standard of my local league is quite low.

Yes, they probably are. I'm OK with that as all teams in every league will go through that early stage - so being über powerful at this stage is the worst time to be überpowerful.
But, seriously, your statement underlines just why I think the dwarf and undead teams are spoiled rotten!
When they trail off, they're still in the top half?! Then what's all the moaning about?

I'm not the one complaining, i think the respective strengths of Undead and Dwarfs as stonger teams is fine. You're the one saying they are overpowered and proposing sweeping changes which would in my opinion drastically alter them both. Remember about 1/4 of the teams in BB are supposed to be joke teams so will lose most of the time vs the top ones.

I'd rather have a team that starts in the top half, stays there for quite a while, and then dips to slightly below average than I'd have a team that starts as sickeningly powerful and then dips (oooh) to the top half of the teams.

The top teams should pretty much always be in the top half of the power ranges. I like that some teams start strong and get weaker whilst other do the opposite. I do have issues with a team that is consistantly one of the top teams at all ranges such as Orcs and Wood Elves so i could see a reason to nerf them.

But as we all know, they'll eventually catch up to the faster teams, because dwarfs are so much better at surviving. Their SPP count is hardly ever reset. If a dwarf lineman "only" reaches block and guard, then he's still one heck of a lineman.

With the greater amount of claw and weaker apoth (who will be saved for the 8 positionals) then they will skill up very slowly. it's also harder to skill up such players compared to the likes of elves.

Have you seen some of the other teams?

Yes and many of them are supposed to be rubbish, these changes would take dwarfs down to the depths of the rubbish human team.

I think you're dramatically overestimating what is being done.
I also think that adding 2 more runners would end up buffing the team rather than nerfing it.

Don't forget - slayers get juggernaut instead. I've seen a lot of dwarf coaches taking jugger on one slayer anyway, so the loss isn't that big. They'll take block first skill I'm sure.

As for the poor longbeards - they get to keep 2 with block. So they're an 8 positional team. With 4 block players. They've lost block off 3 pitch players + the bench. Given how well they currently perform, I think they'll manage just fine.

The addition of the 2 runners would be to make them stronger at higher TV's and counter the low TV nerfs that so many people propose. Your stats have them at 60% win rate which isn't that high taking into account the joke teams.

I don't think dwarfs are too strong overall but agree they are very good at the start, so if some nerfs were brought rebalance this then i think the extra runners would compensate this. Let's face if they are human throwers with Thick skull for 10K more so i doubt many teams would take all 4. But it would go some way to avoid the biggest complaint about dwarfs, they are dull. With 6 AG3 players they could at least handle the ball better and some more AV8 would increase your chances of non-claw teams to injure them.

Another issue i see with dwarfs is that they are too good vs certain teams, mainly zons, flings and gobbos, they do rather well vs dodge heavy pro and wood elves too. An interesting change might be to drop tackle from the longbeards and give it to the blitzers (maybe some price changes along with this), bring in your jugger slayers and 4 runners. I'd like to see doubleskulls zon roster used instead of the current one to avoid zons being too good at low TV though.

Oh and make the deathroller a star again either that or put it on a new dwarf engineer team with lots of secret weapons.