Last thread from me: Allies

[plasmoid]

Updated 13/1 2010

Hi all,
I've seen several failed attempts at creating balanced allies rules in the past. This is my shot at a balanced mechanism. IMO, the fun about allies is that they inject a bit of variety in teams of the same race. All teams won't be maxed out and identical, because with allies som will use them, some won't, and those that do can choose between different ally options.

As for the balance part: The mere option of taking allies can be said to make teams more powerful. But since all teams get them, they can still be balanced - just slightly more powerful. I've actually used these rules to try to narrow the gap between the tiers. As always, I'd better state up front that I'm not trying to create total equilibrium, nor am I trying to change the fact that some teams are strong against certain opponents and weak against others. My idea is simple: I've sorted teams into 4 power tiers, with the 1st one getting very little from the ally rules, and the bottom one getting quite a lot. I've based these tiers off my collected LRB6 data.

Finally, I've tried to make the options fit the fluff - with balance trumping the fluff.

Anyway - here is how it works:
1. The head coach is allowed to employ one ally at any one time, and the ally can be purchased just like any other player.
2. To purchase and own an ally the team must have (at least) one non-lineman (edit:)non-loner player position unfilled. This position must be _more_ expensive than the ally bought.
3. The ally himself can be any player from one of the two allied team lists - except a loner. The ally gains the Loner skill.

Edited based on feedback and the above tweak.
TIER 0: Pretty useless allies.
*Dwarf: Bretonnian/½ling
Any positional for Yeoman (AG3) or halfling (cheap)
*Wood Elf: Human/½ling
Thrower/Catcher for halfling (cheap) or Lineman/Thrower (AV8)
Undead: Khemri/Vamps
Wight for ThroRa (P-skills, Pass). Mymmy for Vamp or TG (not very likely)

TIER 1: Allies to consider
*Amazon: Human/High Elf
Thrower/Catcher for lineman (AV8). Blitzer for Human catcher (MA8) Elf Lineman (AG4).
*Chaos: Ogre/CD
CW for snotling (very cheap), or Chaos Dwarf (block/tackle, AV9)
*Chaos Dwarf: Orc/Chaos
CD for beastman (AG3 horns), Gobbo (mobility).
*Dark Elf: Pact/Necro
Assassin for marauder (cheap, P, M, S) or zombie (cheap). Blitzer for wight (block w. S)
*Elf: Human/HighE
Thrower for human lineman (AV8), Catcher for human blitzer (S-skills)
*High Elf: Bretonnian/½ling
Thrower for halfling (cheap) or yeoman (S-skills)
*Lizardmen: Slann/Amazon
Saurus for Amazon Thrower or slann lineman (both ST3, AG3)
*Necro: Undead/Khemri
Golem for Tomb Guardian (ST5) or Wight (AG3, S-skills). Wight for ThroRa?
*Norse: Human/Dwarf
Thrower for Lineman (AV8), Runner/Blitzer for catcher (MA9). Runner for Longbeard (AV9)
*Orcs: Ogre/Creeps
Thrower for snotling (super cheap) or warpgobbo or warpskaven lineman. Blitzer/BoB for Skaven thrower.
*Pact: Chaos/Orcs
Dark Elf for Beastman, orc lineman (AV9). Skaven/Dark elf for extra gobbo.
*Skaven: Nurgle/Creeps
Thrower for Rotter (cheap AV8) or Mutating gobbo/lineman. GR for mutating thrower.

TIER 2: Useful allies
*Creepers: Orc/Gobbo
Thrower for orc lineman (AV9), Blitzer for BoB (ST4) or Orc Blitzer (AV9), pogo or B&C. Skaven Lineman for SW.
*Human: Chaos/Elf
Human thrower/catcher for Beastman (S,M) or Elf lineman (AG4)
*Khemri: Vampire/Lizards
ThroRa for Skink (MA8, AG3) or Thrall (ST3, AG3). TG or BlitzRa for Saurus (ST4)
*Nurgle: Chaos/Creeps
Nurgle Warrior for CW (AG3, ST4) or Skaven blitzer (MA7). Pestigor for thrower (MA7, P) Gobbo (cheap, mobile).
*Slann: Amazon/Lizards
Catcher for Skink (MA8) or amazon non-blitzer. Blitzer for Amazon blitzer (blodge) or Saurus (ST4)

TIER 3: Powerful allies
*Goblins: Creepers/Chaos
Pogo or B&C for beastman, skaven mutating lineman or mutating gobbo.
*Halflings: Elf/Dwarfs
Treeman for Slayer or Elf Blitzer.
*Ogre: Orc/CDs
6th Ogre for Orc Thrower, Orc Blitzer or Bull Centaur.
*Vampire : Human/Khemri
6th (unused) vampire for: Human thrower, catcher, blitzer or TG.

Comments?

[Joemanji]

Comments?

Anyway - here is how it works:
1. The head coach is allowed to employ one ally at any one time, and the ally can be purchased just like any other player.
2. To purchase an ally the team must have (at least) one non-lineman player position unfilled. This position must be _more_ expensive than the ally bought.
3. The ally himself can be any player from one of the two allied team lists - except a loner. The ally gains the Loner skill.

Not too exciting. I would be prefer rules like:

1. A coach may hire players from the races listed below. The player must be from a 0-16 or 0-12 position. You may only hire one ally from a race at a time, but are not restricted in the total number of allied players you may have.
2. The ally gains the Loner and Animosity skills.

Expanded race list, e.g.

Amazon: Human/Norse
Chaos: Chaos Dwarf*/Dark Elf/Orc/Norse/Underworld
Chaos Dwarf: Goblin/Orc
Human: Amazon/Dwarf/Elf/Halfling/Norse

[plasmoid]

Hi Joemanji,

>Not too exciting.
Personally, I find that being able to hire positionals is way more "exciting", than choosing between various linemen.

However, I can see adding Animosity as well as Loner.
One thing to consider is that both are really much less of a problem for bashers than finesse players.

Cheers
Martin

[Joemanji]

Hi Martin,

I don't like the idea of positionals at all in principle. Though you list is so restrictive as to make this less attractive anyway. On first glance most of the available allies aren't worth having, even from a fun perspective. But one or two are awesome. If I was CD coach I would love to take a Black Orc or Chaos Warrior instead of a Minotaur.

I think Loner is a huge problem for bashers until they get block. This is often a reasonable way off since you are much less likely to score or pass with them. However, once they have Block they are much more reliable. Still, it means you can't throw 1D blocks, which is a significant issue.. Loner still has an effect ... mainly on GFIs in my experience. The combination of Loner & Animosity gives the coach some trouble should they catch a bouncing ball or make an interception. This is a marginal issue, but should still be annoying at times.

[Tim]

In my opinion and experience from all we tried in 3rd Edition, allies in general are *WRONG*. Because a single allied player often is enough to work around a deliberatly created weakness of a wohle teamlist. Esp. if the weakness is ball handling, low AG (Khemri, for example) or the adsence of a thrower position (Lizards).

Specifically to plasmoids rules:
- your rules don't work for Halfling/Gobbos, who would they drop from the list? A Troll/Treeman?
- For most teams dropping an (expensive) positional for (cheaper) ally does not make sense. For others that have plenty of positionals it could be a no-brainer, like dropping a Human catcher to add an Elf lineman does not hurt them, but gives them AG4, same would go for Dark Elfs, drop a witch elf and add a Chaos Warrior? YES, PLEASE!

[plasmoid]

Hi Joemanji

On Loner & Animosity: I agree that they both affect bashers.
I just think they both affect finesse players a heck of a lot more.

On first glance most of the available allies aren't worth having, even from a fun perspective. But one or two are awesome. If I was CD coach I would love to take a Black Orc or Chaos Warrior instead of a Minotaur.

For the record, this is what I was shooting for:
Tier 0: Pretty useless allies
Tier 1: Debatably useful. Fun for the adventurous coach.
Tier 2: Useful
Tier 3: Definately useful - will hands down improve team performance.

It's deliberate that the list is restrictive. I wanted to stick to the above principle.
But I don't agree that "most aren't worth having, even from a fun perspective".
I don't want to do a full list of potentially interesting allies - as that will force my perspective on anyone considering this seriously.
But I'll give an example:
Tier1 - Amazon: Human/Lizard
*An AV8 lineman for LOS-duty might be worth the 2nd thrower.
*A human catcher might be worth one of the blitzers, due to MA8 on an all-MA6 team.
*For the same reason, a skink could be useful. Weaker than the catcher, but also available as replacement for an amazon thrower/catcher.
*Finally a saurus (ST4) as replacement for an amazon blitzer could be quite useful for several reasons.

See?
Martin

[plasmoid]

Hi Tim,

In my opinion and experience from all we tried in 3rd Edition, allies in general are *WRONG*. Because a single allied player often is enough to work around a deliberatly created weakness of a wohle teamlist. Esp. if the weakness is ball handling, low AG (Khemri, for example) or the adsence of a thrower position (Lizards).

I've been very conscious of this with my restrictive list - and I've (IMO) steered clear of game/team-breaking options.
For instance, I think a weak thrower (AG3, Loner, no sure-hands) is an interesting but not super powerful option for lizardmen. Especially when it comes at a cost of either a saurus or the krox.
With khemri, I find the new khemri to be rather weak, so I actually think that a decent AG3 player (thrall or skink) as a replacement for 1 thro-ra could be a good thing.

...but that is ofcourse the big question

Specifically to plasmoids rules:
- your rules don't work for Halfling/Gobbos, who would they drop from the list? A Troll/Treeman?

Somewhat true. I couldn't buff these as much as I wanted.
However, I do think they have powerful options.
Halflings can take an elf blitzer instead of a treeman. Personally, I'd take that.

Gobbos have more options - first off because trolls just ain't that great
But also because you could trade in the pogoer or fanatic - which is after all a vulnerable SW.
A gutter runner or a chaos warrior (ST4 ball carrier) could be worth a troll for these guys.
And if that doesn't take your fancy, then trading one of the 70K options for a beastman is (IMO) a good deal.

- For most teams dropping an (expensive) positional for (cheaper) ally does not make sense.

As you said above - some things are interesting because they're unique, while you're only giving away one of something that you have more of. Certainly, some coaches don't use their 2nd thrower. And others aren't too fond of their big guy options. I've tried to factor that into my list.
Also see my reply to Joemanji.

For others that have plenty of positionals it could be a no-brainer, like dropping a Human catcher to add an Elf lineman does not hurt them, but gives them AG4,

...and for some teams I'd consider that quite acceptable.

same would go for Dark Elfs, drop a witch elf and add a Chaos Warrior? YES, PLEASE!

Is it that obvious? Or is it just worth considering?
IMO, having played darkies, I think the 2 witches are the stars of the team. I don't think that the CW is a no-brainer.

But - in summary - Joe and Tim - you're saying that for the tier1 teams Dark Elves and Chaos Dwarfs access to Chaos allies (CWs) may be too good?

[someone2040]

I'm not experience enough to see things from a rules perspective. Especially not 9am on a Monday morning at work XD.

But why do Humans ally with Chaos, rather than something obvious like Dwarves? (Dwarves make even more sense, fluffwise, than Elves do). Especially since the only player Humans could get from Chaos are Beastmen right? Since all human positionals cost less than a Chaos Warrior - unless you can ditch the Ogre I suppose. Or was the allies list made with benefits in mind, rather than fluff? Not that I think Dwarves bring that much to the Human table anyway, cause they're so slow. Hard trade off just to get some block.

[plasmoid]

Hi Someone2040,
I've tried to walk the line between fluff and benefit. Many teams, such as humans, had more than 2 fluffy allied races - so I picked 2 that gave fitting benefits.

With humans, I wanted to bring out that they're really a neutral race. Sure they can ally with the good guys, but humans are very susceptible to the lure of chaos.
And yes, they could get a 60K beastman for (almost) free (ditching) the 2nd thrower or 4th catcher (70K). So something for 60K could be an appealing choice. Or they could swap the ogre for a chaos warrior.

I think dwarfs are about equally fluffy with "pro"/rough/leatherpunk elfs - but IMO, elfs just brought more interesting options to the table

Cheers
Martin

[atropabelladonna]

I have to say I like it. It is about as balanced as you could hope. Although, I havn't looked throught the list and tried to break it.

My answer to your question to Tim would Be:

I would take a Chaos Warrior over a Witch Elf. Even with Loner. In a heartbeat. Once he gets block he is going to be a big help, and that shouldn't be too hard. AV 9, ST 4, and S+M access. Gives you a punching bag and either a guarder or a killer later on in development. But I could see how some may not want to make that choice. And it isn't like Dark Elves are the most powerful teams

[Patchwork]

The only one ally at a time limits some of the fun of the idea but it could still be interesting and there are plenty of teams I'd drop a positional for one of the allies ones (A slann blitzer for a Sarus wouldn't even require thought, the same for a chaos warrior on a Dark Elf team). You might have given Dwarves a boost though, you could drop the deathroller and replace it with an ogre or a human blitzer, both tempting. Wood Elves might drop a catcher to take the halfling just for the one turn touchdown chance.

Also with the player getting loner I'd be unlikely to take players that would be handling the ball and instead go for bashing, for example I'd be tempted with a high elf thrower on the elf team, with the aim of getting sure hands as the first skill to limit how bad loner would effect him but even then there would be small effects, like if I wanted to go for it, which would be more critical on a ball handler then on a brawler, that would just make it not worth giving up a catcher for and I'd instead only really consider a high elf blitzer.

[plasmoid]

Hi Patchwork,
thanks for taking an interest.
I think multiple allies is a recipy for disaster, so I'll back off from that.

there are plenty of teams I'd drop a positional for one of the allies ones

No problem for me, as long as it's from my tier 2 or 3 (so I'm OK with the slann one)
For Tier 1, I'd want it to not be a no-brainer, but worth considering.
So I guess a lot of you think that the Witch=>CW is too good. Fair enough. We have alternatives. Certain team lists offer less - or very little (like Pact). I'll look for a substitute.

You might have given Dwarves a boost though, you could drop the deathroller and replace it with an ogre or a human blitzer, both tempting.

Well - ogre can't be taken, as it already has loner.
Human blitzer... Hmmmm - perhaps that is a bit much. Honestly, it is hard to find a non-evil team with weaker options - since the DR will be a good trade for almost anything...

Wood Elves might drop a catcher to take the halfling just for the one turn touchdown chance.

IMO, not a problem. Woodies can OTS better on the ground fairly soon. Halfling might be useful early on, because he is cheap, but he is also very vulnerable.

As for Loner affecting finesse players more:
Agreed, so you'd have to consider whether they were worth it. IMO, some of them will be. It depends on the team. And bashers too can be greatly in need of a GFI too.

Cheers
Martin

[Joemanji]

I think the attraction of Allied players is that you can take a rookie lineman and he try to develop him. Just hiring a positional seems wrong to me, both in balance and fluff terms.

[mubo]

I like the idea of trading allies for positionals. Re the DR for human blitzer, how about restricting 0-1 positionals (or loners) from this? High TV Chaos Dwarf teams would also like to trade a mino for something more reliable.

IMO allies provide an interesting way to theme a team, without allowing flaws in how the team plays to be overcome.

Restricting it to lineman type players I think would be much simpler, and I don't think you'd lose much flavour. Increasing number of potential allies (Humans with elves/dwarfs/chaos/halflings/undead) would allow more player types/variety.
Also you could extend rules to allow more than one player, so you can get more of a theme. eg humans with animated corpses of previous linemen etc. Just limit to one team at a time.

An alternative would be to make a list of the allowed ally player types for each team, e.g
Chaos: Chaos Dwarfs, Hobbos, Skaven linemen, Rotters, Pestigors, Zs, Goblins etc.
More time consuming, but you have to worry less about someone finding a gap in the rules.

[slup]

The problems with these allies are:

1) expensive teams (elves) taking cheap players allowing for an early boost:
DE exchanging assassin for zombie
WE exchanging thrower for halfling
then later replacing for strength skills (and even mutations for DE)

2) Human catcher on Dwarves (catch+dodge means loner is moot), thought too broken for CLBBBL

3) Vampires on undead, both balance and blood lust

4) AV9 nurgle warrior on skaven, AV9 on skaven proven broken by CLBBBL

Most of this is helped by the tier 1/0 teams having non-linemen positions to spare