Claw - any armour roll of 8 or more

[DoubleSkulls]

I think part of the perception that there is a problem with Claw is that Orcs and Dwarves - the team it hurts the most - are fully implemented. The bash teams who aren't as concerned (e.g. Norse, Undead) aren't yet. So when they are in it will be interesting to see whether perceptions change.

The problem I have with "claw is broken campaign" is that no one seems to be showing that Chaos win more than they ought to. Sure they probably do more damage to teams than some would like - and in environments like Cyanide team building is just about the only goal coaches have so I think there may be an increased sensitivity to it.

[funnyfingers]

DoubleSkulls - Does a TV2000 Dwarf team have a chance against a TV2000 Chaos team?

[DoubleSkulls]

DoubleSkulls - Does a TV2000 Dwarf team have a chance against a TV2000 Chaos team?

Yes it does. I've been there and done it myself. Lots of guard can make it hard for the Chaos player to get blocks, Dauntless helps, and using MB/PO against the Beastmen works fine. You have to play a slighty different game too since you can't just get stuck in. So you stand off a bit more and push them off. I also used a DR to good effect.

I've also played an Orc team at high TVs on Cyanide too.

One other thing I do is have deep benches - 14-15 players on both teams. Against a traditional lean chaos team they can get more off the pitch and still not establish a numerical superiority for the game. If you managed to get on top then its really hard for them to come back - while you can take a few off and still be competitive.

[plasmoid]

Also, a chaos lineman is AV8. A dwarf lineman is AV9 + thick skull.
Not everyone in a chaos team can have claw... (Well, they could, but they'd be paying dearly for it TV-wize against AV7 teams), and the rest of them will have a harder time smacking a dwarf, than a dwarf will have smacking them.

Besides - yep, developed chaos may just have a good match up against developed dwarfs.
That doesn't make them (or pion + claw + mighty) broken.
There are other such slanted match-ups in the game.

Cheers
Martin

[Ravenal]

imo if you want to up the cas rate in the game you shouldn't do it through the skills but through the base chance to cause a casualty.

Something like KO = 7-8
Badly hurt = 9
casualty 10+ (D68: 1x-2x = MNG, 3x = niggle, 4x-5x = Stat loss, 6x = DEAD DEAD DEAD)

and then lessen the cas rate increase you get from skills by for example not allowing claw and MB to modify the same roll (armor) and/or have claw work on 9+ instead of 8+ ... and possibly looking into having piling on also only apply to armor rolls.

... might be a reason though why that part of the game hasn't been touched in any rulebook for ... eh, how long?

[GalakStarscraper]

Wow .. okay .. that just not the game I want to play to be honest.

Anyone who thinks that we took the blood out of Blood Bowl we've been able to show to them that they are wrong.

However if changes like the ones you suggest went through .... we really would be taking the blood out of the game.

Tom

[DoubleSkulls]

Since LRB5? That introduced the D68 for the casualty roll.

[Ravenal]

Since LRB5? That introduced the D68 for the casualty roll.

8-9: KO
10+ cas

That hasn't been chanced since 10 = badly hurt, 11 = serious injury, 12 = dead

[GalakStarscraper]

8-9: KO
10+ cas

That hasn't been chanced since 10 = badly hurt, 11 = serious injury, 12 = dead

Well ... sure ... that's because if something works you don't need to fix it.

Please note ... while you are doing your best to make your case on this thread ... your not getting much agreement with your proposals. That is not meant to be insulting ... just to point out that maybe it really isn't a problem.

Galak

[Ravenal]

Please note ... while you are doing your best to make your case on this thread ... your not getting much agreement with your proposals. That is not meant to be insulting ... just to point out that maybe it really isn't a problem.

Wait ...

The team itself is not broken. However if leagues get themselves into a position where any reasonable proportion of teams are built this way, then yes it's going to be a shitty league.

Countered by "take fend and whatnot anti-skills" ... fair enough.

Combinations of 3 or more acquired skills are heavy to carry in terms of TV.

Misses the point of teams just having one/two of those guys as specialized high AV eliminators ... more on that later.

"the bashy season" (Chaos, Nurgle, 3 Orcs, 2 Dwarves, 2 Lizardmen, and a couple others). During that time I found that the value of the 'killers' was woefully exaggerated. By the end I had one beastman, the Mino, and one Warrior who I was still working on.

... which supports what I said earlier, rather than having a team full of those guys.

I really have to say that once you factor in inducements, Claw is no where near as bad as people make it out to be.

sure, cyanide BB isn't exactly the same like said here:

For people playing on Cyanide where you can easily play several games a day the level of development isn't an issue. So a "rarity" factor argument that exists for TT leagues doesn't apply for Cyanide.

This will effectively make AV9 teams stronger as they will now not have the leading cause of player turnover to worry about. Taken to its logical end this would actually lead to stringer, more skilled bashy teams, rather than having players die to claw.

... sooo, only chaos and nurgle (don't need doubles for claw) are privileged to killing high AV teams?

Seems some people are not realizing that Claw does work on AV8 and along with MB is basically +1 to both armor and injury against AV8. I can't say what percentage that is, but there are a lot AV8 players total.

... in support of

Claw does exactly what it was intented to do. Remove players from high AV teams so that such teams don't continue to spiral in TV without injury.

... is AV 8 considered high AV?

of course the access to it wasn't as common as it was now, if this is just from cyanide then the lack of full implementation of inducements and races affects the validity of the claims

I think part of the perception that there is a problem with Claw is that Orcs and Dwarves - the team it hurts the most - are fully implemented. The bash teams who aren't as concerned (e.g. Norse, Undead) aren't yet. So when they are in it will be interesting to see whether perceptions change.

It also hurts lizardmen quite a lot ... more than half of their on field players (6 saurus + krox) are taken down by claw. Losing Saurus players hurts ... a lot.

This thread was more meant as a discussion ... about claw possibly being too effective in the bashing game and too "one sided". I've provided stats and a hypothesis and received some encouragement to my argument. Yes, the problem might be that the cyanide game does not fully implement bashing teams that are not "that" affected by claw. It does however as pointed out act as a +1/+1 armor/damage against AV8 - in that sense having the biggest impact on AV8 players, not the high AV players the skill is seemingly supposed to target.

[GalakStarscraper]

However what your comments don't address is that Claw, Piling On, AV/INJ Mod stacking and the Apothecary were all changed so that off-pitch attrition (Aging) could move to on-pitch attrition.

What you are suggesting is that we actually move to a point where we remove the increased on-pitch attrition which will eventually lead back to the suggestions of "we need to do something about all these highly skilled players in the game" at which point someone will bring out an off-pitch mechanic and we'll be back in the mess that LRB 5.0 was designed to fix. The game wants players to die with their boots on (not in the locker room after the game).

So yeah... it is supposed to be that aggressive even to AV 8 players.

Galak

[daloonieshaman]

Quit your whining and take the hits that are dealt. You face a guy with claws blitz him and then foul his a$$ and get him off the field. Claws is no big deal. If you are afraid of claws you have bigger Blood Bowl issues than you think

[Ravenal]

What you are suggesting is that we actually move to a point where we remove the increased on-pitch attrition

No ... That is not what I am suggesting.

First I strike up a discussion on the stats for claw/mb and the increase in cas rate over no skill and bring suggestions on how to close that polynomial gap per skill.

Next I suggest that BASE cas rate would be increased to compensate ...

My take on claw as such is that it isn't a problem. Specifically I have a problem with the limited access to that high cas rate. Teams that have access to Claw can more reliably score casualties against bashing teams than other bashing teams can (this skill targets bashing teams). I am not stating this as a recipient of claw, but a user ... so don't assume that bias.

So, all in all:
Increase base cas rate, making niggles and stat losses more common ... and balance bashing vs bashing access to casualties in respect to the claw skill.

I know, as has been stated frequently, that claw in it self doesn't win games (although it does help a lot if your opponent can't counter it successfully). It can however easily be used just for griefing.

[Grumbledook]

it doesn't just target bashing teams, it is really just orcs and dwarfs

against norse and amazon (both bashing teams) it has no use at all for example, pact, chaos dwarfs can both get claw themselves

underworld can also get it, though they aren't really a bashing team with all the goblins

orcs and dwarfs can compensate by having more skills, mighty blow and piling on is a nasty enough combo to go after the claw equpied teams, either the claw players themselves or their usually lower armoured team mates

then when you consider that claw is a waste of TV against plenty of other races as well, coaches who do max out on claw are going to lose plenty of games against competent coaches

[Ravenal]

then when you consider that claw is a waste of TV against plenty of other races as well, coaches who do max out on claw are going to lose plenty of games against competent coaches

Yes yes... as do coaches that max out on tackle and and and, thats not an argument against claw specifically. Competent coaches do not max out on claw ... well, unless they plan on just griefing.