Other teams for Stunty Cup?

[DoubleSkulls]

I was wondering what people thought about allowing other teams teams for stunty cup competition? In particular I'm thinking about "skaven free" underworld teams and saurus free lizardman teams.

I've allowed this for a few years at Euc Bowl, but its only been tried once and was outperformed by two other teams. It can be seen as quite good, but with 60k players you can't afford too much of a bench and there is of course no TTM option.

The underworld team with mutating goblins and a single troll I think looks a lot worse on paper than regular gobbo team.

[Darkson]

I allowed both at the ARBBL last year, and will be again this year.
Only had someone try the Skaven=free Underworld, and he came in the bottom 4, but it was one of my clubmtes who always does badly at tourneys.

[Nippy Longskar]

I allowed Underworld with no skaven players (but any available stars) to contest the stunty cup at FlameBowl II. They were very narrowly beaten by a regular goblin team. Seem like the right level to me.

I've never seen the all skink team in action, but in my head it seems stronger than other stunty contenders. A lot could depend on the skill progression for the tourney for them though.

[Leipziger]

Underworld with no skaven have been allowed at the Stunty Slam, but I'm not sure anyone took them. We did allow all skinks and that team won the event. However, as Mark points out, it may also be do with the ruleset for a particular tournament (as well as the coach of course. In this case, it was the bouffanted Mr Jimjimjimany.

I think the jury is still out on all skinks as there is not enough data yet.

[GalakStarscraper]

Chaos Cup has allowed Lizardmen with no Saurus as part of the Stunty Cup for 3 years now.

Our current list planned for 2010 is:
Halfling
Goblin
Ogre
Lizardmen (no Saurus)
Underworld (no Skaven)

To date we've only had one of the Stunty Cup Lizardmen teams show up and it was part of one of my favourite match-ups in the Chaos Cup's history. In round 3 they drew a Dark Elf team with 2 Assassins and Horkon. 8 Skinks were stabbed into the CAS box by the end of that game.

Galak

[Darkson]

Assuming the painting get's finished, BigBelcher is intending to take a Stunty Cup legal Lizzie team to the ARBBL - not sure if he's intending to take a Krox or not (yes, he's that mad).

[Pipey]

IMO Lizards with no saurus is way stronger than the other stunty options - and therefore a bit of a slap in the face for halflings, gobbos and ogres.

I would consider underworld without STR3 / general access players (i.e. skaven) but at Monkeybowl I wouldn't allow the skink/krox option as 'stunty'.

[DoubleSkulls]

I'd love you to expand on why you think they are too good. I'm looking at it and thinking I'd win more with any of other options. For 980k you've only got 12 players & 3 rerolls, and only one Big Guy. Skinks aren't any harder to kill than goblins, and sure they can run a little faster but they can't be thrown and only a single Krox can't protect as many of them as trolls or a tree can. So I'd reckon that most teams would rather face skinks & krox than a full 16 goblin team.

Obviously tournament format can make a big difference but it certainly doesn't feel any better than a goblin team. Even an skaven-less Underworld team feels more appealing because of the options you get from regular access to mutations (e.g. Horns goblin for 60k, Big Hand for 60k).

[Pipey]

It's just theory not practice (not played with or against an all-skinker), but MA8 vs. MA6 (gobs) or MA5 (halfling, ogre) is massive IMO. Much more than just 'a bit quicker'.

Assuming TR110 (which the vast majority of tourneys are), you could get:

13 skinks 780
krox 140
3 RR 160

The krox is also a very useful big guy to have, probably better than any other BGs available to stunties.

For me it's too things:

1. two (or three) points of extra movement is an enormous advantage IMO and would make skink teams the most powerful in the stunty group

2. it seems contrary to the fluff to have lizardmen competing for a stunty cup (as they're not a stunty team), especially when they'd be stronger than the other teams

[Joemanji]

Prehensile Tail is also brilliant against other Stunties ...

[Valen]

I am with Ian here. I feel I would have a better chance beating other teams with the 3 normal stunty teams than the skink team.

On the other hand, if I had a normal team I would much prefer to play against the skink team also as imo they would be easier to beat.

[voyagers_uk]

Dwarves are short, could I use Dwarves....

[DoubleSkulls]

Prehensile Tail is also brilliant against other Stunties ...

But Goblins and Halflings both have two Big Guys. That makes a very big difference IMO even though the krox is a very good BG I'd much rather have the 2nd BG.

13 skinks is 260k more than 13 goblins - that's a hell of a lot more stuff you can buy for the team. Troll, 2 more goblins and a 4th reroll.

I really don't see that they are clearly overpowered and none of the evidence provided by tournaments where they are allowed seems to show that either.

From a fluff perspective I can understand disallowing them.

[Glowworm]

It's just theory not practice (not played with or against an all-skinker), but MA8 vs. MA6 (gobs) or MA5 (halfling, ogre) is massive IMO. Much more than just 'a bit quicker'.

Assuming TR110 (which the vast majority of tourneys are), you could get:

13 skinks 780
krox 140
3 RR 160

The krox is also a very useful big guy to have, probably better than any other BGs available to stunties.

For me it's too things:

1. two (or three) points of extra movement is an enormous advantage IMO and would make skink teams the most powerful in the stunty group

2. it seems contrary to the fluff to have lizardmen competing for a stunty cup (as they're not a stunty team), especially when they'd be stronger than the other teams

I played that roster at Thrudd 09 & won the stunty cup ( there where 2 Gobbo teams, 3 Fling teams or maybe the other way round & 1 ogre team as well)

To be honest, I was lucky, against normal (non stunty) teams I was as out played as any other stunty (and lost my Krox in the first turn of one match!) however i scored in every game (if my memory is correct) and that racket up the tourney points. With Ma8 you never need to pass the ball (not further than Short pass anyway) so handing off gives you potenially a 20 square range with the ball (Inc GFi's) which is a long way!

The one stunty team I did play (last match) was Flings and was played in a blizzard. That really screwed him over as he just kept failing GFi's where I could still move 8.

Yes, I think they are the better stunty team, okay if TTM works or Gobbo's secret weapons behave you will get a result but they are maybe's, you know skinks can always move 8, no dice roll required.

Should you ban them? No, i dont think so, Norse and woodelves are stronger than most teams at 110 IMHO but not everyone will play them, most stunty coaches play stuties of all kinds for the same reason....its fun (and hey, if you do beat Woodies then you deserve a beer)

Did'nt Jimjimany win Stunty slam 09 with a Lizardmen stunty team? he's probably more qualified than me to comment on them!

[Jimjimjimany]

I’d ban them, mostly for the reasons Pippy mentioned. The speed advantage they had makes both their offence and defence much better, which more than makes up for 1 less big guy and the TTM option. And against other stunties they are just ridiculous, able to out pace them to the extent their additional big guys won’t matter. Plus against some teams I’d rather have a single MA6, bonehead, prehensile tail big buy than a pair of much slower, less useful ones.

Although seeing them included wouldn't cause me to blow a gasket, i just think for being better and not usual stunty they should be excluded.