League Human starting team (TV100)

[Welshy]

I'm really agonising over two set-ups for my humans league team due to play their first game this time next week. The league is to the new CRP rules (aka: LRB6) and I expect to play approximately 30games. Feedback & thoughts appreciated.

4x Blitz
2x Catchers
2x Throwers
4x Linemen
3x RR

The above is bascially a traditional 12man team. This team lacks some punch without an Ogre who will also be a real beggar of saving for, but has the benefit of 12men and has a much higher scoring threat with the two throwers and catchers. As opposed to:

5x Linemen
1x Throw
4x Blitz
1x Ogre
3x RR

This initial alternative set-up concentrates on the running game. Main strengths are the Ogre and 4x Blitzers, this only leaves the Apoth(50k) and Catchers(60k ea) to buy, the cheap catchers mean I can get one earlier than I could get the Ogre with a non-Ogre set-up. This also gives me the most linemen and Ogre as early as possible allowing for better long-term team development. The 11 players is obviously a problem.

[Piousman]

Start with an 11-man team with a Catcher and 3 Lino's. Should be enough with 10k left over.

After the first game get the Apoth. After the second game get the extra Lino.

Piousman

[Setomidor]

I'm doing the exact same thing, and I'm considering the following starting team:

3 Blitzers (270k)
Ogre (140k)
Catcher (70k)
Thrower (70k)
5 Linemen (250k)
4 Rerolls (200k)

(Comes out at even 1000k)

I think it is more valuable to have 4 Rerolls than the 4th Blitzer early on (although he is my first purchase after an apotechary). I also appreciate having both Pass, Sure Hands and Catch on the team from the start, as I think winning the first few games is extremely important for long term development (Giving you a boost both to Winnings and SPPs).

You also mention "Cheap 60k Catchers", is this a typo or house rule? From what I can tell, the price is still 70k.

[Welshy]

I like that format, I've always understood that 4 RR is good for humies so I can see that by shifting some players around that you can get all the skills in there from day 1.

As with everything there is a compromise however: Only 11 players and you either play two games (usually) to get the apoth or plunge straight for the Blitzer. Hmmm interesting... I suppose I'd go for the Blitzer too as then you'd have 12 men and losing a rookie player (worst case scenario) isn't too big a deal.

Sorry, my bad. 60k was a typo, 70k is quite right for catchers.

[Setomidor]

Agreed, but with Journeymen filling in for players missing a game, the only thing you really have to worry about is getting positional players killed early on. (Or suffering -ST, which is always horrible.) With some luck, you'll be able to win the first game and almost certainly be able to purchase an apo right away (75% to win 50k or more if you win the game, and 89% if you also get +1 FAME).

[Arklite]

Personally I like to start with 5 linemen as opposed to the second thrower. more often than not the thrower's job in an early roster is little more than a feeder to the blitzers and catchers so there isn't much reason to field more than one early on in my mind.

4 blitzers
2 catchers
1 thrower
5 linemen
3 re-rolls

in addition this saves you 30k in the bank to make sure you can get an apothecary after your first game and preserve those all important positionals as soon as possible. Nothing more annoying than loosing a Blitzer or catcher in your first few games and slowing your chances of getting an ogre or some more re-rolls.

[Welshy]

Arkite:
Thanks for your thoughts. This is comming back towards my 'default' human team but squeezes and extra 20k for an easy shot and an Apoth. I am tempted as it's a nice safe option, but am still wrestling with how to get all the required skills and 4RR in. Don't worry I do know that something has to give... it's just a matter of what...

Which bings me to...

Setomidor:
I've tried out you 11man format on the Cyanide game versus the CPU. While I've only played the first half so far I've already had a Lineman killed but managed to remove 2players from their side also. Thankfully the combination of; receiving the initial kick, the Ogre and 4RR's allowed me to get and stay on top of the opponent. I only just missed out on a second TD by half time.

While this roster is still my preferred choice, I am still very scared as the single catcher can quite easily be targetted/bullied and the death of a Blitzer/Ogre early on would be quite likely to scupper the team all together!

A temptation would be to drop the 4th RR and get the Apoth from the off and allow an early 12th man in the form of Blitzer or Catcher... any thoughts?

[Setomidor]

11 players is a bit vulnerable, yes, and it comes down to:

Do you know which teams you will be up against for the first few games? Can you challenge opponents yourself? This can very much affect what constitutes a suitable starting team, as you're much more likely to get away with a 11 players / no apo starting team against agile teams than against bashing teams. If you do not know which opponents you'll play, look at the other teams participating in the league and see what is most likely. (You don't have to worry that much about Chaos or Lizards at this point unless they brought a Big Guy, but Orcs and Dwarves could be really problematic).

If you then feel you can survive the initial few games, then I think you should go for 4RR / Ogre / 3 Blitzers. If not, then I think you should consider getting the apo instead of the 4th reroll, and then quickly save up for Blitzer #4 just as you said before.

[Smeborg]

Although I've seen it practice, I'm not sure I buy the concept of Human sides without Catchers (or Human sides starting without Catchers).

Whenever I have had a good Human team, it has owed a lot to its Catchers. This seems to be especially the case in 6thEd./CRaP.

Maybe 2 Catchers for offense and 2 for Defense is the way to go in a league of any length:

- Offensive Catchers: Diving Catch, Block, Sidestep, Fend (NoS on doubles).

- Defensive Catchers (= Blitzers): something like Wrestle, Dauntless, Tackle, Leap, Pro.

These skills and (especially) stat increases make the Catchers into outstanding players. I think you need to start skilling them up early to get the best performance out of the side. It also helps to protect them (if you introduce Catchers in the middle of a league, they are quite squishy).

[Smeborg]

I am open-minded on the Ogre. I think you can run a Human team with or without one.

If you start with one, you may take time to reach your full squad, especially if you get slapped about a bit in early games. But if you are going to take one, there is an argument for starting with him, so that he will skill up (by taking 3-dice blocks at every oppotunity).

[Welshy]

Agreed on the Ogre/Catcher front. My experience of Humans is that without catchers they find it hard to score, likewise without the Blitzers (mobile BLOCK skill) they don't punch enough. 4RR I can also see as being very handy as it will allow much better 1 & 2Dblocking all round as well as allowing the Blitzers to be reasonable catchers.

After all my flip-flopping I have decided on:
4x Blitzers
1x Catchers
1x Thrower
5x Linemen
4x RR
Apoth

A deciding factor is that the 4th Blitzer with ST3, BLOCK is (in my mind) better than the Ogre's higher strength, Loner and Bonehead. I'm also starting about 2games behind most folks (I was awway on holiday) so can always get a 12th man as an inducement.

This will allow for a straight save for the 12th man. If I'm weathering the storm then I'll go for the Ogre, if I'm struggling then I'll go for an early catcher.

Thanks for all you help folks, I'll let youu know how I go after my first game next thursday night here in NZ.

[Grumbledook]

http://bbtactics.com/tv1000-human-starting-roster/ advice on starting human teams here

in the ECBBL I started with the first (ogre no catchers) and am second seed for the playoffs with them

can't say I've tried playing humans without an Ogre as I find them rather useful to have even for just getting in the way. Like smeborg said if you are going to have an ogre then it makes sense to get one from the start

[Welshy]

OK, so I flip-flopped one last time and went with:

1x Ogre
4x Blitzers
1x Catcher
1x Thrower
4x Linemen
3x RR
10k in the bank.

After my first game (vs Rookie Orc side) the TD's were 3-0 against and CAS 3-2 against. The major flaw was that my lone catcher was killed, on the plus side the Ogre killed an Orc.

The game wasn't such a white-wash as the TD's suggest, I had a resonable shot at a first (my) half TD at about T6 but with the preassure mounting the Ogre went stupid and I had to 'go around' him. The resultant, still reasonable dodge rolls meant a spilled ball, turn-over and 3-turn stomp up the pitch to finish the first half.

With the Orcs starting their half fully catered for with most of my team in the KO bin PLUS a dead catcher there wasn't much I could do to stop their 2nd. Their 3rd was a cocky/desparate play by me that I could/should have guarded against, but with so few players couldn't keep my TD hopes alive without some risks... that blew-up in my face. To add insult to injury I also only won 10k...

I always knew that this roster would be 'risky' i.e. 11 players including a 'stupid' loner, however I must admit to being a bit be-fuddled. I'll be starting my second game with my 10man roster plus journeyman and still no Apothecary. I'm still happy to play on and assume that this is meagrely part of such a risky roster and it'll come right in a while.

Your thoughts welcome.

[bungo_underhill]

Ouch, human team with no catchers really put a downer on your options.

IMHO Humans, more than other teams, really need to capitilise on their opponents weaknessess to win games.

Against Bash you need to be able to keep your distance and make the passing plays. With only one catcher on the roster that is hard to do (and the lone catcher makes on obvious target for the opponent). I think that could be why you struggled against the Orcs.

If I were you I'd try and play finesse teams for your next few games and focus on your own Bash game (which is pretty good with 4 Blitzers and an Ogre, but probably not as good dedicated Bash sides) whilst you save up to buy some catchers.

Good luck!

[solarflare]

I love to play humans, and I actually like the starting lineup there. This starting lineup will help you to advance the blitzers and the ogre more quickly.

Bungo is, of course, correct that you have to play to your opponent's weaknesses with humans. And that does make this roster hard to play against bashy teams to start.

So, against bashy teams, my advice would be to use your blitzers as your catchers. (You have to take care of your re-rolls to do this, though.)