League Human starting team (TV100)

[Duce]

I tried the following roster based on the ones in this thread:

4 x linesman
4 x Blitzer
2x Thrower
1x Ogre

3 x Rerolls
1 x Fan Factor (could save this if league mode)

The idea was for em to see how this team would fare in a league, in a practise game vs orcs the first half went well with my throwers helping the blitzer out on assists. The ogre held the line with two linesmen and kept being kicked about by the enemy troll and black orcs meaning i could rush blitzers into the back field to get the ball.

Ended up 0-0 after first half and had to call game as ran out of time.

I'll be honest in saying i'm a new player so i might have made some errors like allowing them to have 3 players on my ogre with no support due to the linesmen being already knocked down, but i had a uneasy feeling playing with an ogre off the bat due to only 11 players. I think maybe a 4th reroll and linesman or even a catcher might help out and offer more options, but then again my LOS would have been more easily slapped about.

the idea being for my team is the throwers could run 6 from one side, hand off to the other guy, he runs 6 to the other side and forward and short passes it to an open linesman or blitzer who runs down the pitch.

[Welshy]

... And that does make this roster hard to play against bashy teams to start.

So, against bashy teams, my advice would be to use your blitzers as your catchers. (You have to take care of your re-rolls to do this, though.)

Thanks Bungo/Solar. I was always aware that a single catcher was a target... but a dead one is a bitter pill to swallow, I'm just glad it wasn't a Blitzer or Ogre. I'm finding sollace from what you folks have mentioned so far and confirms 'the bigger picture behind the team build: Gets development options on Ogre, Blitzers and Linemen for better, later league development. Also: Your confirmation of the single catcher limiting my effectiveness against 'bash' teams is very noticable and confirms my suspicions that Humans can find it hard to score without these fellows on the pitch.

Thankfully I'm pretty good at RR management and so am looking forward to developing my knowledge of alternative scoring with the Humans.

Further thoughts welcome.

[Smeborg]

Welshy - if it's any consolation, I've also done what you did: started with an Ogre (therefore fewer positional players) and got mashed in my first game. There is no easy solution - I think a starting roster without an Ogre is stronger, but if you plan on taking an Ogre, it's best to start with him.

The more I play Humies, the more I am inclined to play them as AG3 Elves (meant as a compliment!), especially in 6th Ed. with the enhanced Diving Catch. If you get into a Block war with any of the traditional bash teams, you are not likely to come out on top.

[Welshy]

... The more I play Humies, the more I am inclined to play them as AG3 Elves ... If you get into a Block war with any of the traditional bash teams, you are not likely to come out on top.

Thank-you Smeborg, I think I am also comming to the 'Elf' analogy myself. The Ogre + 4x Blitzer Roster is obviously the 'bashiest' roster to start with and having only a single catcher means he is going to be (and was) heavily targetted. A 'Bashy' Human team is also never going to be able to compete versus traditional Orc/Dwarf rosters. For this reasons my current thoughts (with the Team's second game scheduled against a 'Pro Elf' side this evening) is that you can only out-bash the light teams, and you can only out-run the slow ones... An obvious statement to make in hind-sight.

My two thoughts for more 'balanced' rosters would therefore be:

With Ogre, 12 man:
1x Ogre
2x Blitzers
3x Catchers
1x Thrower
5x Linemen
3x RR

This gives you the 12men and 3RR which I (now) suggest are the staple diets of any human side by sacrificing a couple of blitzers. NB: Feel free to swap a Thrower for a Catcher if you want more Surehands/AV8. Or simply another lineman with money in the Bank for an easy shot at an Apoth after game 1.

Traditional 12 man (no Ogre)
4x Blitzers
2x Catchers
1x Thrower
5x Linemen
3x RR
30k in the bank for a 92% (+ FAME) shot at the Apoth after the first game.

You can of course sub-out a lineman for a Thrower (or even a third Catcher!) if you want the skills at the sacrifice of you bank-balance.

Both of these rosters are intended to give the balance of a reasonable blocking side with the addition of scoring potential. I'm assuming that the game plan (often quoted - but hard to implement mid-game when double skulls etc abound) is to 'play the off-side' of the opponent as opposed to having a fixed dogma for your team by constantly giving your opponent 'what-if' decisions and playing to their natural weakness(es). It is therefore what game you opponent doesn't play that matters the most as opposed to the game you wish to play.

Assuming this isn't gross necromancy, I'll post an update after the next match (maybe more) if people find it interesting/useful.

[Welshy]

Well, what to say... I ended up playing another Orc side (TV118 versus my TV97) for my second game and come out second best again. 2-0TD Loss and 7-0 CAS loss! My TV after Journeymen is now 84. *GULP*

The Cas break-down was 3x Dead (Thrower and 2x Blitzers), 1x Miss Next Game (Ogre) and 3x Badly hurt. I'll be fielding 5 Journeymen for the next game, making a total of 9 Linemen and 2 Blitzers... not much fun! I am convinced this result was down to more bad-luck than bad play (available players considering) as the the CAS rate alone indicates close to 20 knockdowns per turn on average... obviously well in excess of what is physically possible!

I'm prepared to soldier on with this team and if nothing else squeeze every learning angle I can out of this badly beat-up bunch of noble (read: foolish) warriors. The main learning point form this game is that Catchers are a potent score threat and the combined DODGE/CATCH skills make them something to be feared. This scoring threat gives the humans a 'distraction' type of play fitting in with my earlier "Play the off-side" ethos. It's not taht you can't do this with other playes (Blitzers being an obvious choice) but you'll be burning RR's a-plenty with-out the specialist skills.

I had tried this approach with the blitzers in the above game and it was looking good until a bodged 93% 'certanty' of a block led to an early T4 turn-over and spilled ball. This was all the Orcs needed to bring their full numbers to bare and crush my AV8 'sheild' on the ball and grind it in for a T8 score. Starting with only 7players in the second half (and kicking) meant that the result was already a for-gone conclusion.

I am also considering that the Ogre should be used more a as a Blitzer type than Blocker and start the drive off the LOS as he is often isolated and flattened once his flanking linemen are pushed/knocked away from the LOS. By using him more as a 'threat' and 'wedge' for what I am considering to be the typical half-way human "chuck or run" gambit would be a better use of his S5 bulk rather than committing him to a rough (and probably short) life on the LOS.

Any further thought to my musing is, as always, welcome.

[Duce]

I found the same problem vs orcs with the ogre as you Welshy, he ended up being kicked and beaten most of the first half once his linesmen friends were shoved away.

Good to see you're shouldering on with the team, consider it a challange but i do agree that when a blitzer dies you do feel it.

I think its tough vs bashy teams due to lower AV and no STr 4 players (Both of which the ocs have in abundance)

maybe taking two catchers with wrestle on firstskill could help? one blitzs in and wrestles the ballcarrier, a thrower picks up ball and throws to 2nd catcher?

[Ullis]

It's usually a good thing that the opponent starts hitting you big guy, unless it's a Rat Ogre or a mino as they only have AV8. Especially if the opponent lacks MB and/or Claw.

An ogre is a very durable piece with AV9 and Thick Skull and you definitely shouldn't be afraid for it getting hurt. Chances are he ties up three or four opponents and the player doing the hitting might not even have Block so the chances of a failed block are higher. If the opponent knocks him down and only leaves one opponent tying him up, then you can blitz with him to reposition if needed.

So what if the ogre spends time on his ass? Better it than some poor guy with AV8.

[Piousman]

With such massive losses, would it not make more strategic sense to re-start the team? Especially only 2 games in?

2x Blitzer and 1x Thrower require a LOT of savings to make up.

Piousman

[solarflare]

I agree. If it is within league rules, I would say to re-start the team at this point. I also agree that it is OK for the ogre to be taking the bashing.

It's also not a good long-term strategy to make a bone-head/loner player the guy you use your blitz action for consistently. Of course, there are times when it is the best move, but whenever possible, you want your ogre's action to be the non-critical action of your turn...

Orcs are a tough matchup for a rookie human team - especially one that is trying to skill up the blitzers/ogre first. Still, the casualties you took in that game are just awful... 3 dead positionals... just ouch...

[plasmoid]

If you're going to soldier on then having MNG on the ogre isn't so bad. For just 30K more he can be induced with no additional penalties.

Inducing a thrower with leader is also pretty TV efficient.

Cheers
Martin

[Welshy]

After much agoniding and with a heavy heart I've decided to re-start. With my post-game 1 team i.e. Ogre, Thrower and 4x Blitzers etc I'd have been happy to continue... but with only two Blitzers as my remaining positionals (while Ogre is away) there just doesn't seem to be enough skills to be competative.

The re-start roster:

4x Blitz
2x Catchers
1x Throwers
5x Linemen
3x RR
30k in bank.

this is much more of the 'traditional' build and ignores the Ogre to concentrate on a more 'balanced' team profile. I was going with 2x Throwers but ditched one for a lineman to allow for an easier first game shot on an Apoth.

[Ullis]

4x Blitz
2x Catchers
1x Throwers
5x Linemen
3x RR
30k in bank.

I'd still aim for 4 rerolls. Either change a catcher to a lino or ditch one lineman completely. The rerolls allow you to play a much more agile style when needed. Dodging with AG3 works more often than not but you cannot rely on it to work when you don't have rerolls.

[Welshy]

Inducing a thrower with leader is also pretty TV efficient.

I've been challenged with a rookie Amazon side, so I'm giving it one last go with an expected inducement as PLASMOID's recommendation. The Skill combo (Sure Hands, Pass & Leader) should allow me to manufacture a couple of scoring opportunities and I even have an Apoth now too (if only he was around sooner!) to keep my two 'star' (read: only) Blitzers away from Death's door.

I'm thinking that the medium term 'recovery' programme from here involves buying Blitzers and inducing Throwers/Catchers untill I can replace them permenantly. The theory behind this is that Throwers/Catchers will predominantly be using their skill re-rolls to do 'their' jobs where-as Blitzers and Linemen will need TRR's inorder to re-roll Dodges, catches and Blocks.

I'll keep you folks posted and, for the moment, the second/re-start squad will be waiting in the wings.

[Gimli]

I'm in the same boat, starting a new Human team in a long term league. After MUCH agonizing, I've decided to go without an Ogre. I've also decided to start with an APO, and as many TRR as I can get. I'm going with
4 Blitzers
2 Throwers
5 Lineman
4 TRR
1 Apo

I note that in several of your builds you started with 1 Thrower and 30K in the bank. I think the Throwers are a bargain, basically Lineman with 2 skills for only 70k. I'd recommend you get the second Thrower, and not leave money in the bank.

Also, with an APO I think you can start with only 11 players, with a little more confidence.

Awkwardly, my first league game is against an Orc team. Gulp.

[Welshy]

Hi Gimli,

from what I've learned with my Team's near-death experience (and not out of the woods yet) is that Humans are lucky to have plenty and cheap 'boil in the bag' player types. Even inducing a Merc Catcher or Thrower isn't a biggie as they'll be burning skill RR's, not Team ones to do their job. The only players that 'need' them to function in an agile manner are the Blitzers and Linemen.

I therefore suggest that there are two type of fundamental builds (ignoring the Ogre counundrum) and that is one that relies on TRR's (minimum 4) to allow the 'agile' plays, therefore would be built mainly from Linemen and Blitzers, and those relying on skill re-rolls derived from a spread of player types (therefore 2 or 3 rerolls).

Happy Blood Bowling, I'll let you know how the Humies get on versus the Amazons tomorrow night (Thurs) here in CHCH,NZ.