How to fix Journeymen?

[voyagers_uk]

WORD? and yet the POLL has spoken... priceless.

[mattgslater]

WORD? and yet the POLL has spoken... priceless.

1) Uh, so just because most people think one thing, it's not ok to agree with somebody else who says he thinks something else? Come, now. That's a bit offensive, but you're a good fellow, so it's probably more poorly thought-out.

2) I wrote this poll, but I'm about to question its structure. I put that "Journeymen are fine" option up there to get a sense of where we are with respect to where the common perception is, but that means I'm really asking two questions.

3) Polls don't speak until they're closed, and this one is far from it: let it marinate a bit. It's a bit premature to be citing this poll as evidence, given that there are 13 votes at the time of this answer: in a couple days I'll have a more usable number. If I were to take these results as-is, or if they play out to their current form, that result would seem to indicate that my group doesn't agree with the majority on TBB. That doesn't bother me in any way, though it's nice to know.

What I would read from this poll is that at least a few other coaches (in this case, GuppyShark and Digger) are in agreement that the discrepancy between the good Journeymen and the bad Journeymen is a problem, while some, many or most think it's not a big deal.

@Martin: Yes, we're paying for our Journeymen. In fact, in week 2, we had one rookie coach who just didn't get that concept and I watched his opponent explain it to him. We have one coach who hates any new rules at all and refuses to play Journeymen or induce anything but cards, but that guy aside we all agree that Journeymen fill a valuable function.

[mattgslater]

The problem I see is best illustrated with Wood Elves, though they're far from the only team that gets disproportionate advantage from Journeymen. I'd say, in descending order, this boosts Wood Elves, Norse, Pro Elves, Dwarfs, Dark Elves and High Elves at the expense of Lizardmen, Undead, Chaos Dwarfs, Underworld and Nurgle. (Somebody will mention Necromantic too, but it cuts both ways: Necromantic have a steep money curve, but the lino can't fill in for the positional).

In the old days, Wood Elves were a 50/50 proposition. Either they'd do well and become this gnarly powerhouse team, or they'd stall out and have to spend all their money keeping their rosters at/near 11 men. They were still too damn powerful, but at least it was Cadillac cheese, a reward for good play. You couldn't fake it; if you tried, you'd be sorry.

But now, even though they're a little weaker on paper, no Wood Elf team ever has to take a replacement lineman. It's always okay to hoard cash and pick up the 120k guys and TRRs. Down to 9 men? Who cares? There's no price for failure, but there's still an awesome upside, so instead of being a highwire act, Wood Elves are a crutch (and an annoying one).

In no case do I think they should be a meaningfully worse value than a rookie Merc lino. I'm concerned that the Bonehead thing might be a touch much, but it also sounds like a lot of fun and very realistic. The +30k is, obviously, balanced against inducement cash (that one was easy).

[GalakStarscraper]

Down to 9 men? Who cares?

Matt ... if this is your problem with Journeymen ... than I have an easy 3rd option for your league.

Move Journeymen from the post game and make them an inducement only option.

I think you will find that this quickly removes any problem you have with them.

I will note that this was tested during the Vault process and rejected because good teams who were down to 9 men and then still giving up inducements to the other team felt like they were getting pounded.

But if you want to make high end teams a more risky position ... than that was exactly what we tried to stop with what we finalized the Journeymen as. However ... with what you describe ... it sounds like all you need to do is go back to what we had originally for the Journeymen as concept and I bet it works perfectly for you.

Galak

[Darkson]

And it would hurt even more if the reason you've got Loners on a Lizardman team is because you've got some Saurus down, and the TV from the Loner Skink is what is preventing you inducing a Loner Saurus.

Um, don't take the Journeyman Skink then?
Journeymen are optional, you don't have to take them.

[mattgslater]

And it would hurt even more if the reason you've got Loners on a Lizardman team is because you've got some Saurus down, and the TV from the Loner Skink is what is preventing you inducing a Loner Saurus.

Um, don't take the Journeyman Skink then?
Journeymen are optional, you don't have to take them.

Yeah. That's only a problem if you don't know who your next opponent is, or at least don't know if you're going to be the underdog. My one loss last season was when an opponent's Pro Elves were 240k underdogs with 10 men: instead of the Journeyman he took Moranion, who proceeded to score 2 casualties and keep a hat on my ST4 Blitzer throughout the second half. But if he hadn't known my TV in advance, he would have shown up with a Journeyman and would likely have taken a Wizard, who probably would not have gotten two casualties and certainly wouldn't have kept Uncle Slam tied up.

Move Journeymen from the post game and make them an inducement only option.

I don't like this for the same reasons that you don't. I'd like to ensure that each team starts with 11 players. We did just this for a bit already, but it turned out to be kind of self-defeating. Like we had a Necromantic team that would have been 1.06M, but was stuck at 1.02 against a 1.05 team because they were missing a Z, so they had to play man-down with only 4x AG3 players. It also potentially leads to more Journeyman maneuvering, though I can't attest to that firsthand.

What I'm trying to do is discourage coaches from using Journeymen to hoard cash and buy the expensive stuff regardless of how much damage they take, not to prevent them from taking Journeymen. My problem is that just when our season peaks out, the teams that used to have cash-flow problems have everything they need, because they never had to worry about replacements. Some of these teams were too powerful back when money troubles really hurt, and the coaches I have who remember that day are really bitter about how much better they've gotten. Or, rather, how little differentiation there is now between coaching skill levels on those teams. It's hard to strut your stuff with b'dass Wood Elves, when the worst coach in the league switches to Woodies and makes the semifinal.

I'm not saying the old ways were better. I am just saying the new ways bring their own drawbacks.

[plasmoid]

IMO, it is the downfall of many an AV7 team to think that it is OK to start a match with 11 players.
11 players means that every cas you suffer leaves you outnumbered for the rest of the game.
I friend of mine did that with skaven, and he tanked. I took over the team, built it to 13 (with linos) and started winning. Quite a bit.

IMO, if your finesse opponent goes in with 11, you need to go after him harder. The risk/reward ratio improves greatly for fouling, for instance.

IMO - again - the only problem with journeymen are the ones that almost aren't affected by loner. I'm thinking dwarfs here. And norse perhaps.

Cheers
Martin

[voyagers_uk]

Matt, do you like to have your Friends restart their teams after you kill 3-4 of their players despite their having a winning record, or do you insist on killing more to make the notion of a perpetual league ridiculous.

Journeymen fill a useful hole, they do not overpower a team. Their bonus is not balanced as is nothing else in this game........ see Chess..

sorry bit grumpy, have exam on tuesday

[reservoirelves]

What I'm trying to do is discourage coaches from using Journeymen to hoard cash and buy the expensive stuff regardless of how much damage they take, not to prevent them from taking Journeymen.

If this is the issue then make a houserule that says you can't take a journeyman if you have enough cash to purchase a lineman.

[GalakStarscraper]

What I'm trying to do is discourage coaches from using Journeymen to hoard cash and buy the expensive stuff regardless of how much damage they take, not to prevent them from taking Journeymen.

Ah ... okay let me try another suggestion than.

Jervis threw out without allowing the BBRC to vote one good rule that was in what was supposed to be LRB 5.0. He threw out the Bank and replaced it with Petty Cash.

From the sounds of things what you need to do is not mess with the Journeymen rule but to bring back the Bank from PBBL v1.12. So totally delete the Petty Cash rule and try this instead. (I still wish to this day that Jervis had NOT thrown out the Bank rule and have said so any time I've been asked as I think it was the biggest error he made with BB since the Vault process started).

Which was:
Add this to the part of the rulebook discussing how to calcuate Team Value

Bank
The NAF offers a banking service which can save up to 100,000 gold pieces for a team so they do not have to risk carrying excess amounts of gold when travelling between matches. Gold saved in the bank should be recorded on the team roster but does not affect Team Value allowing your team to save for purchases without giving away inducements. You can only add to or remove gold from the bank during the Post-game sequence (see page 38).

Team Value
In League matches the ‘value’ of a team affects whether it receives Inducements for playing a match (see pages 35 to 36) and if it suffers from Spiralling Expenses (see page 38). The value of a team (often abbreviated to ‘TV’) is worked out by adding up the value of the players that will play for the team in its next match, including extra value from improvements, to the cost of coaching staff, team re-rolls, Fan Factor, and any gold in the treasury. Record the value of your team in the appropriate space on the team roster. Note that gold in the bank and any players that are missing the game due to injury do not count towards the
Team Value.

Pre-Game sequence change:

2. Inducements
Teams that are at a disadvantage are often given ‘inducements’ to play that will help even the odds. Usually this takes the form of
extra gold, offered by the stadium owner to help convince a team to take part in a match against a superior opponent (and thus
allowing the stadium owner to recoup his losses and more through tickets sales and merchandise!). To represent this, an underdog in a match may be given a certain amount of gold that can be used to buy things for the team to help them in the upcoming match. The amount of gold the team receives is equal to the difference between the total value of the underdog team and the total value of the opposing team. For example, if one coach had a team worth 1,000,000 gold pieces while his opponent had a team worth 1,250,000 gold pieces, then the first coach would be allowed to spend 250,000 gold pieces on Inducements. Any of the gold that is not spent on Inducements is lost and may not be added to the team treasury. In addition, either coach may use gold from their treasury (but not their bank) to purchase Inducements. If the superior opponent wishes to purchase inducements with gold from his treasury, he must do so before the underdog purchases any of his inducements.

This is the Post Game sequence:

1. Delete any players that have been killed from the roster, and record any changes to a player’s value for improvements.

2. Generate winnings for the match. Each coach rolls a D6 and adds their FAME (see page 18). Your team receives this amount x 10,000 gold pieces as winnings for the match. If you won or tied the match you receive an additional 10,000 gold pieces. If you won the match you may also choose to reroll your D6, but you must accept the second result even if it is worse than the first. Remember that teams that concede a match do not receive any winnings.

3. Each coach must now pay for spiralling expenses through gold in treasury and/or the bank (see the next section on this page).

4. If a coach lost or tied the match he should 2D6. The winning coach should roll 3d6. If a coach won or tied the match and his roll is greater than his team’s current Fan Factor then his team’s Fan Factor increases by one point. If the coach lost or tied the match and his roll is less than his team’s current Fan Factor then his team’s Fan Factor decreases by one point.

5. Each coach may now transfer gold from his treasury to his bank or to his treasury from the bank (remember that the bank cannot hold more than 100,000 gold pieces).

6. Each coach must decide if they wish to spend any gold in the team treasury to buy new players and coaching staff for their team, and/or let go (i.e. fire) any team re-rolls, players, or coaching staff from their team who are no longer wanted - however, you don’t get your gold back. In addition, each coach can choose to spend gold from their treasury to increase their team’s re-rolls. Adding a re-roll costs double the amount shown on the team list, but only adds the basic (un-doubled) cost to the total value of the team. NOTE: gold still in the bank cannot be used to purchase players, coaching staff, or team re-rolls.

7. If your team has any Journeymen (see step 8 below) on the roster you must either fire them from the team or you may permanently hire them by paying their rookie cost if you have less than 16 players on your roster. If you hire a Journeyman, he loses the Loner skill but may retain any Star Player Points he earned or skills learned from Improvement rolls.

8. If your team can only field 10 or less players for the next match, you may bring Journeymen onto your team for free until your team can field 11 players for the next match. A Journeyman is always a player from a 0-12 or 0-16 position on your team's roster, counts his normal rookie cost towards your total team value, but has the Loner skill as they are unused to playing with your team. Journeymen may take the total players on your team (including injured players) to more than 16 at this point.

9. Work out the total value of the team and record it on the roster. The value of a team is worked out by adding up the value of the team’s players (including extra values for improvements), support staff, team re-rolls, Fan Factor, plus the gold in your treasury. Do not include the value of gold in the bank or any players that will be forced to miss their next match due to injury.

[mattgslater]

Hmmm... I like that. Thanks, Tom. I'll run it by my group!

@ Voyagers_UK: I'm not that much of a killer-type: I used to be, back in the day, but now I'd rather win 4-0 with one casualty than 2-1 with four. So no, if I get the other coach down 3-4 men it's usually just the dice being mean: sure, that happens once in awhile. I block a lot, and I'm fond of chain-blocking, so I do tend to inflict more than a median amount of damage, but I'm not really a bruiser: I only foul when it's a no-brainer, for instance, and I tend to take Stand Firm ahead of Mighty Blow. We've had two teams restarted: one was a winning team that got mulched by the bottom-feeder in a freak game, and frankly it was his fault for getting flustered and making some bad decisions, which was what turned a tough game into a horrible loss. The team wasn't really forced to reset, but the coach overreacted to losing a couple good players. No sympathy. The other lost a couple players in week one, then reset. After a bad drubbing in week two, he reset again, despite not having lost anyone. Again, no sympathy. I'm not arguing they should have to play man-down the following week.

My personal peeve in this is that I went out of my way to avoid accusations of cheese by letting the rest of the league pick my team race from a shortlist (High Elves won out over Necromantic, Chaos, Dark Elves and Norse) and then I got tarred with this brush because the WE and PE teams were cheesing out on Journeymen to cash in just as the playoff stretch hit. I didn't inhale, I swear! For that matter, I'm not sure it's a good idea anyway (both teams melted down at one point or another). But a rules change is a good way to unruffle feathers.

[GalakStarscraper]

The Bank was a good Blood Bowl rule. Jervis should have never deleted it. Would have solved a lot of the "issues" Cyanide has found in their MatchMaker program as well.

Based on what you are describing ... my recommendation is to put BB back the way the playtesters and I meant for it to be for LRB 5.0 and you'll be much better off.

Galak

[DoubleSkulls]

The only problem with Journeymen as I see it is that all linemen are not created equal.

If you don't think they are good enough then don't take them, and use the inducement money you get instead on something worthwhile.

[mattgslater]

The only problem with Journeymen as I see it is that all linemen are not created equal.

If you don't think they are good enough then don't take them, and use the inducement money you get instead on something worthwhile.

Assuming you're the underdog.

[plasmoid]

Hi Matt,
I think Reservoirelves solution is fairly simple and straightforward.