Underworld strategy advice - please help

[Smeborg]

I am considering putting out an Underworld team, and suspect that I might find them quite appealing in practice. From this forum, my no doubt selective memory has gleaned the following strategy tips:

- The players that you put on the defensive LoS can usefully be varied according to circumstance.

- The Throwers are better developed as Runners rather than Passers.

- The best first normal skill on the Gobbos is 2-Heads.

So far, so good. However, I have a couple of general questions:

- How would you define the roles of the different player types? Especially the Linerats and the Gobbos? For example, who are the ball hunters?

- What is the best general development path for the 3 ST players? For example, should they be built as slayers from the start (e.g. M-Blow, Claw), or as more passive ST players in support of the team (e.g. Guard, S-Firm)?

Any experience-based advice along these lines would be much appreciated.

[Ullis]

I find that at least one of the rat blitzers should be built directly into a killer role. They start with Block so they're well on their way to it. Just MB and Claws and you're there.

Having a dedicated player on a ball hunting role seems a bit wasted on the team. Probably giving one of the linerats Wrestle, followed by Two Heads would be enough.

My own Underworld team seems to have hit a certain plateau in development. The team functions smoothly and all I'm really missing is a third skill on the troll. Two Heads on enough goblins (two seems to actually work fine) is essential. After I got those two everything seems a lot more easy. Two Heads on the rats works great as well. The team has enough speed for good positioning but lacks the AG or skills for it. I'd obviously rather have Dodge on them but that's beyond my own control. The rookie blitzer will be given a more passive role, getting Guard first. The main problem is fragility (two last games have started with me losing three players, two rats and the troll and three rats the second time, on the first turn) but there's not much I can do there either. Foul Appearance is not on the list of skills to get.

The team will make a good slayer side and that seems to be to be the best way to play them, as a mobile killer team.

[cyagen]

I agree but IMHO you should develop all your rats in pairs.

Blitzers: MB, Claws
Throwers: Extra Arms, Block
Linemen: Block, Claws (I am not a fan of Wrestle since I do not like my rats on the ground)

They take dodge on a double. They are the players that you need to protect. Remember, you are going to take a lot of CAS so having just one player for one role is not going to be enough.

I usually put 3 gobos on the LOS (the only exception being Dwarves), it saves my rats from taking a beating and they can get in the backfield faster. Sure they have only 2 ST but your opponent will always find a way to get 2D blocks against ST3 LOS guys and the Gobo have dodge which make them annoying as hell.

But Underwolrd is the kind of team that has more then one optimal strategy and they are fun to play and develop. It is always priceless to see the face of your opponent when he meets your Wrestle/Two Heads / Claws Gobo....

[Smeborg]

Thanks, guys - most helpful. It's possible I may have my first game with them today.

How do you guys manage without Guard? And with almost no Tackle?

[mattgslater]

How do you guys manage without Guard?

I want to know this too. I'd like to take an à priori stab at an answer, though and see if those who use this team agree or not.

Two Heads on a Goblin is a lot like Guard, because he can dodge anywhere. It takes an action, but if you can position well beyond the block, who cares? You can't afford to leave off in enemy TZs, which kind of limits the value of Guard anyway. Besides, you have so much ST2 that you generally want to be blocking with your S-access players and moving with the others, no?

[Don__Vito]

I was very lucky with a couple of my players, I developed a killer very quickly, who absolutely stormed the league in casualties and ended up an 18 game season with claw/mb/po, frenzy and +ST! The other Blitzer rolled a double (Dodge) first skill, so took Two Heads then Guard, he was my emergency ball handler and general nuisance.

The Linerats didn't last long (Got through maybe 6 in the season?), but I forced them to score asap and quickly took block on those who skilled and tackle as a second skill. The team really misses ST3 reliable quick blitzes, so I figured block over wrestle.

My two throwers went different routes, but neither as a typical thrower. Extra Arms followed by Block on this first as a Runner style Thrower, then the second got Dodge on his first skill and Guard on his second, so was another mobile nuisance.

Goblins get 2 heads on first skill and die by their second, no need to dream of these horns/strip ball/two heads monsters!

Underworld really are fun when they aren't frustrating, just try to TV manage so you're inducing stars each game and have fun with them!

[plasmoid]

Handling guard : Maybe too zen - but to me, underworld is like water.
I stay mobile and don't engage the guarders.
I've only developed the troll to smash stuff. Everyone else will disengage any fight they can't win, then duck and weave until I reach my goal.
That's the theory anyway.

[Hasdrubal]

My Underworld team has been pretty successful so far. My league is full of elfs teams, so my team development is highly bent towards playing towards those teams. Anyway, here's my opinion on the roster:

Skaven Linemen: I'm really torn about their usefulness. Starting with no Block, you can turn them into good ball sackers with Wrestle/Strip Ball or Tackle, however a prone rat is never a good thing and the team lacks the punch to break a cage to give access to the ball carrier. Mutation access is nice, but definitely isn't game-changing as it can be for the other players of the team.

Skaven Blitzers: G, S, M skill access is sweet. I see 2 roles for them, either "can openers" (Mighty Blow, Claw, Horns.) or utility role (Guard, Tackle, Mighty Blow). Again, Taking advantage of Mutation access on normal skill rolls points towards a killer role. They are OK ball handlers as well should you need to score with them.

Skaven Throwers: Animosity restricts their passing play ability (although my team averages 1.5 completion a game), so they're better dveloped into runners, since they always have the pass option available. Extra Arms makes into easier to pick up and catch the ball, a great first skill. Follow-up with Block for added survivability. Kick is a great skill for an Underworld team, I'll give it to the defense thrower as a 3rd skill, while the offense one would get Accurate or Leader.

Warpstone Troll: a key piece to the team because of the raw strength it can add. You can develop the troll into either a passive role, similar to a Beast of Nurgle, through Tentacles, Prehensive Tail and Guard. This works best against agile teams who rely on their mobility. An active troll will start off with Claw and blitz/block every turn to accumulate casualties, Tentacles would be a great second pick for this one as well to keep opposing linemen close and personal.

Goblins: Mutations skills are great, allowing you to somewhat emulate AG4 with 2 skills (Two Heads, Extra Arms). A few goblins with 2 Heads will cause lots of headaches to your opponents as that can go nearly everywhere on the pitch, 2 of them is a start. I advocate redundancy when skilling up goblins, so that you have pairs of gobbos with the same or similar skills. A goblin with 2 Heads and Wrestle or Strip Ball becomes a great ball sacker against bash teams.

To Guard or not to Guard? I guess it depends on your league environment. In mine (6 teams, out of which 4 are Elfs of different sort) it's brilliant as I can cage up and pretend to play bash Having 3 Block/Guard and a ST4 player manning the corners give the opponents lots of issues. In a bash-heavy league I would rather rely on the teams agility and avoid contact. If you go Guard, you should maximize it by giving it to every player that can get access to it, either on normal or double rolls.

LoS: put either sacrificial pieces (unskilled goblins) or your strongest elements (Blitzers+Troll) when receiving, both set-ups are sensible.

Good luck and have fun!

[Smeborg]

I just had my first couple of games with my new Underworld team, Jeepers Kreepers. Opponents were Humans (near-rookie) and Woodies (slightly developed).

Results were ridiculously good, 3-0 and 3-1 (CAS were 1-2 and 4-2). I can't claim any credit as the team was blessed by Nuffle. In the first game I kicked 4 times and got 3 Perfect Defences and a Blitz (meanwhile my opponent failed every pass). The second game continued in a similar vein, with a TD stopping interception by The Max Planck Institute (Warpstone Troll), followed by a lucky turn 8 score. In the second half, the Kreepers twice sacked ball-carrying Wardancers (with no re-roll, no Tackle, no Wrestle) and, you guessed it, got a lucky turn 16 score.

With 41 SPPs in their first 2 games (I don't know if I've ever done better than this with any team), development looks well set. They have a +1MA Thrower (superb, surely), a +1MA Linerat (don't know, but I couldn't resist it), and a 2-Heads Gobbo. One Linerat got crippled and replaced (and promptly got 12 SPPs in the next game!). I now have an orthodox 1-turn-score capability (no need to lob a Gobbo), which should be moderately entertaining against unsuspecting opponents. At least money does not look like a problem for this team, since their players are all cheap.

For development, I am inclined towards giving the 3 ST players Guard as first normal skill. Dodge looks like a tempting standard doubles skill on all the Skaven, however, M-Blow or Guard would have to be considered on the Linos. Slayer skills look good on practically all the Skaven (M-Blow, Claw, Block), but for me the quandary is who to give Tackle (or at least Wrestle) to. There is also the secondary challenge of whether to take orthodox team skills such as Kick and Leader (thereby delaying 2 players' mutant capabilities). Since the Throwers will naturally take Block at some point, I am slightly inclined to giving the Linos something like Wrestle/Fend/Tackle/Horns (dream on...).

I love the way the Throwers come into their own on this team. I have long considered Skaven Throwers to be one of the best player types in the game, but on the Skaven team they are completely overshadowed by an even better player type (Gutter Runners). The Linerats look rather handy, too. It looks like the Throwers and Linos will hog a lot of SPPs, but die a lot too (which seems a fair trade)! Certainly a resourceful and entertaining team (which I have long wanted to be part of the game).

[mattgslater]

Congrats!

Only the SVs and Troll can get Guard on a normal roll.

[Smeborg]

OK, here is what I think I will try:

Warpstone Troll: Guard, Claw, S-Firm (Block on doubles)
Storm Vermin: Guard, M-Blow, Claw (Dodge on doubles)
Throwers: Block, X-Arms, K-Ret on the fast one, Leader, Block, X-Arms on the other (Dodge on doubles)
Linerats: Wrestle, Horns, Tackle on the fast one, Kick, Wrestle, Horns on the other (Dodge on doubles)
Gobbos: 2-Heads, Horns, Sidestep (Wrestle on doubles)

The general idea is to build blocking and assisting capability first, followed by slayer skills on the 3 ST players. The Linerats and Gobbos will go ball hunting. In a nutshell: "First knock down your Dwarf, later in the league put him in the dugout."

[Ullis]

Nice first games!

I'd start one of the blitzers down the slayer route right away with MB followed by Claws, especially if you plan to take Guard on the troll instead of Claws. I just feel that the team doesn't need that much Guard. Admittedly I suck at positioning Guard players but the team functions pretty ok without it too.

[Leipziger]

Wow! You achieved as many Spps in two games as I did in 17 game season Good Work!

The Underworld are great fun as the mutations give them so much flexibility. Although I had a brutal first season, I have used them for a couple of games in our Vets' League this season. After 20 games overall, they look like this:

U-Bahn Untermenschen

Linerat 7 3 3 7 50
Blitzer 7 3 3 8 CAS 2,TD 2, MVP 1 (15 Spp) Block, M Blow 110
Goblin 6 2 3 7 40
Goblin 6 2 3 7 TD 1, Cas 3, MVP 2 (19 Spp) Big Hand, 2 Heads 80
Linerat 7 3 3 7 50
Goblin 6 2 3 7 MVP 1 (5 SPP)40
Blitzer 7 3 3 8 Cas 8, TD 6, MVP 4 (Spp 54) Block, 2 Heads, Horns, Claw, Mighty Blow 170
Goblin 6 2 3 7 Cas 1, MVP 1 (7 Spp) Horn 60
Goblin 7 2 3 7 TD 1, Cas 2, MVP 3 (22 Spp) +1 MA, 2 Heads 90
Troll 4 5 1 9 Cas 2, MVP 1 (9 Spp) Tentacles 130
Thrower 7 3 3 7 Comp 8, Cas 1, TD 2, MVP 1 (21 Spp) S Hands, Pass, Accurate, Strong Arm 120
Thrower 7 3 3 7 Comp 1, Cas 5, MVP 2 (21 Spp) S Hands, Pass, Block, Tackle 110
Goblin 6 2 3 7 40
Goblin 6 2 3 7 40

RR 4
FF 7
AC 2
CL 2
APO
Treasury 60k

[mattgslater]

Wow! You achieved as many Spps in two games as I did in 17 game season

41/17 ~ 2.5. If you concede 9 games at the beginning of T1 and throw 1 completion only over the other 8 with no TDs or cas, you're right there.

6 TDs plus 5 cas (assuming he gets credit for all of them) = 28. Add 2 MVPs, and you've got 3 comps or a comp and an int, plus two more comps for each cas scored that didn't yield points. 41 SPP in two games is very solid for a non-elf team, and for any team probably indicates that you won both games.

Seriously, you just need to get off of offense, so you can score more TDs. When you're having a hard time with development, it's better to lose 2-3 than it is to lose 1-2. Maybe get the Gobs more into it, trying to get two targets open and only throwing to a rat when you blow an Animosity check? Not sure there, as Gobs aren't the most secure place to dump SPP. But that first skill is such a jump in durability, quartering your odds of falling on a dodge.

The Skaven coach in my league has a problem that you may be facing, Leipziger. His rats are winning, but they're not developing because he needs his stars to do anything. He needs his stars, because his other guys aren't developing, and they're not developing because he's winning using them as blockers. So he has this Thrower who, nine games in, has AG4, Big Hand, Nerves and Dodge, off of nothing but Comps (yes, 6 per game) while the rest of his team has 3 comps between them, all on GRs, who have all the TDs. He plays shootouts against the other speed teams, and wins or doesn't, and he runs circles around the lesser coaches (he's not a hot blocker, but he's got a great sense of open space, which is more important when you're the Rat). But when he goes up against the better bashy coaches, they just take out two of his skill players, and suddenly he's got a bunch of rookies with no inducements, plus a couple other guys who would be pretty cool if they ever got to stand up....

[Smeborg]

Nice first games!

I'd start one of the blitzers down the slayer route right away with MB followed by Claws, especially if you plan to take Guard on the troll instead of Claws. I just feel that the team doesn't need that much Guard. Admittedly I suck at positioning Guard players but the team functions pretty ok without it too.

Thanks, Ullis. I will consider whether to go down the slayer route directly with the 3 ST players.

An off-the-wall idea I had would be to give Guard to a 2-Heads Gobbo on a double. He could get anywhere to deliver a Guard assist (before his untimely death).