Khemri and LRB 6

[plasmoid]

Geeez Smurf, I find myself disagreeing with so much that I don't know where to start.

But the highlights:
I'd never bother building a passing game. If you go there you're already screwed.
Khemri is the strongest team, and should you get ST+ and guard (doubles) then the team can become quite scary. Strength just gets better the more you have of it.

Skellies without doubles I'd go with block. In my caging game on a player that isn't fast or mobile I find wrestle to be too much of a liability. Second I'd take fend on 3 guys. When you face the kind of LOS that could cripple your TGs thick skull and fend can actually suck up a lot of "claw, mighty, PiOn".

Oh - a DP is nice. So is some tackle on the guys that don't get fend.

For the TGs I'd take Mighty Blow first. 2nd and 3rd I'd mix it up between guard, break tackle and piling on, so that sooner or later you'll have mighty+guard on everyone, 2 with break tackle and 2 with piling on. Block on doubles, naturally.

For the Throwers I'd take block. Then either tackle or kick-off return: If someone else develops AG3, then the Throwers become blitzer types (tackle) instead. A leader is also good value for money.

I'd never take thick skull on the blitzers. I get it, but it just doesn't pull enough weight.

And I stand by having just 1 thrower: One guy should pick up the ball, and keep it for the entire drive. Yes I get the speed. But -3 TV and the thick skull is pretty good too. For most of the game I don't need the sure hands or the extra move (the TGs can't keep up anyway).

Oh, as stated earlier, I think 13-14 guys is good.
Cheers
Martin

[mattgslater]

So, Martin, I agree that the SH is necessary. I can see how the Thro-Ra early on would benefit the team. But how do you buff Skels? Carry with the TR twice to get him Block, then use him to carry and handoff on the last turn? I see how that's safer, as the ball goes funny in the other guy's backfield rather than your own. But you also don't have RRs on the handoff. Is this an argument for running a second Thro-Ra so you only have three starting guys who are hard to skill? Maybe that guy would be a good target for Kick... I wouldn't normally think about Kick on slow teams, but if you're trying to minimize grind, forcing a deep offense and having a lot of ST5 is a nice combo, and against the speedy guys you need the play to go wrong near the line; if an elven offense flubs the ball out of your blitzing range, it's like the tree falling in the forest that nobody hears.

What do you think of the idea of starting 4x TRR in lieu of the Blitz-Ras? Even with a Thro-Ra, you still end up with 11 players. Or 3TRRs and a Thro-Ra with 13? I'm a little scared to start with no Block, but I'd like to buff some Skels, and I just know that I'll be tempted to hog with the MA6 guys.

[Smurf]

Plasmoid

At my club we break cages in 2 turns, they are lucky to get 3 turns. Cages are useful but can be broken.

Therefore, there should always be a throwing option.

Relying on it or using it as an opportunity is a different thing.

[plasmoid]

Well, maybe you guys break cages easily because the cage consists of players with diving catch rather than guard

Seriously though, if the cage consists of ST5 players and some back-up, it shouldn't break that easily.

Cheers
Martin

[mattgslater]

When it happens, it happens all at once. In my experience, a cage can carry you through to a T8 score, give up a 2TTD in the backfield or a 3TTD downfield, or anything in between. A lot of it is coaching ability, but some of it is chance; even an awful cage-cracking attempt sometimes works, and the best one sometimes backfires badly. All you can do is swing the odds, and maybe come up with an alternative that you can implement quickly, as you sometimes get one turn to account/prepare for a cage-failure. That doesn't mean you're powerless, but not having an out to a cage game means it really has to work.

Fortunately, you have four big guys. You should be able to cage up nicely, almost no matter what you're protecting. I see why you need Sure Hands, though, 'cause this team could easily struggle to get any Guard, and sans passing-game, leaping 1d blitzes are hard to prevent otherwise. Fortunately, you can leave your screeners on their marks, turn after turn, at least against elf-types who can't block them without bogging down. I'd guess the real fear would be the Orc-types, who can outmuscle you even without as much ST because their little guys are so much nastier (for the most part; I'd take a Blitz Ra against an Orc Lino). Since you can't outfight them unless you're straight-up a better coach, the standard smashmouth cage strategy is a loser. But you don't have a fallback, barring an AG increase on a Thro-Ra or Blitz-Ra, or some similar edge.

Dwarfs don't have this problem, even though they have the same cage problem against Orcs, because by the time they start losing every battle, they have alternatives in a few AG3 guys, including the SH/P-access player, and they don't have a skill deficit or nearly as much impetus to load up on MB, so they have a lot more developmental control. Chaos Dwarfs, Undead, etc. also have the same thing going in that the option potential falls on the SPP-hogs, plus generally more speedy guys than just the four. But Khemri need an 11, and preferably two, to make anything happen, and they have to fall either early or on the right players.

Oh, and I'm totally not arguing for Diving Catch. Let Smurf defend that one himself! I see it, but you'd never get me to take it on a double, unless I had a double to waste and 11 defenders I liked (including 1-2 Guard Skels). And even then, it would have a hard time competing with Mighty Blow.

[Ulfast]

Intersting that so many seems to be against two Thro-Ras. Myself belive that to have two is very important. This as one is very weak and vurnuble as he mostly will be the ball carrier. To have two then you got options and the more options you got the better you game will work. You don´t need two from the start put pretty fast you should get the second one. I always build a starter team with two. Nice to ahve two that can cover themself if something happends and it´s intersting to have one in the back that can snicth onf ball from a opponet in case he falls or get blitz and drops the ball (you should be suprise how many players in our last league that missed there sprint roll just one square before touchdown).

[mattgslater]

What do you guys do on the LOS? Is it okay to put up seven? Or do you really need 5 in your backfield? Does having two Thro-Ras change the equation, let you put up only four? Note that what follows sounds like an argument for Thro-Ras, but I don't mean to advance it as my view so much as an idea, where this thread and my experience intersect.

I've found on other MA6 teams with one dedicated pick-up player is that if the ball goes wide it ends up directing the play, because my retriever can just get to the ball, and if it goes to the sideline, he needs to GFI twice, or once if I can guarantee he won't be marked or blitzed (tall order). Some defenses direct the play on their own, and when the ball goes to the defense's good side (usually, thanks to Kick), it's hard to recover. Would a second Thro-Ra help with that? I know, KOR, but you'd probably rather have two Block guys who don't need KOR, than a Block/KOR guy, no?

If you can't control your direction, having two free MA on the retriever's first turn (because he's two squares out from centerfield) is big, and having seven men on the line is huge. The play-side "tight-end" (sorry for the football term, don't have anything better, and this is actually a classic 2TE football set) is then free to move, while the off-side "TE" will either be free to move or will be set up to throw a 2d block against the D-end off the opening push from the center, probably freeing up his TG buddy for caging or blitzing; this sounds like a job for a Blitz-Ra, but you probably need one in the backfield, and a Skel with Wrestle will do. You can do that with six men, pulling the playside tight-end into the backfield or splitting him out wide, (you'd have to do the latter in football... but no such restriction here), but if you don't know which way the ball is going and can't play a reverse, it's nice to be able to get in a six-man lineblock in either direction. And with your low MA, it sometimes really matters that you have a guy up there to blitz right off the line, probably on both sides of the field (assuming you don't need all six line-blocks).

There's also the economic issue. 400k for 4x TG, plus 210k for 3x Re-Roll, plus the minimum cost of 280k to get to 11 men leaves 110k for upgrades. At (70k-40k) 30k for TRs and (90k-40k) 50k for BRs, and 40k for reserves, that leaves the following packages for a starting roster:

2 BRs, 10k bank
1 BR, 2 TRs
1 TR, 2 Reserves
1 BR, 1 TR, 30k bank
1 Re-Roll, 1 TR, 10k bank
1 Re-Roll, 1 Reserve

[Ullis]

Accurate and Diving Catch gives the team a quick pass option with 3+ to pass (with an inbuilt reroll) and 3+ to catch. Comparable to a starting human team and better odds and a better range than a hand off (even if you have a reroll handy).

Those odds are at least ok. I'm not arguing for taking Diving Catch on doubles as I suspect there are better alternatives (having never played Khemri) but there is a valid point to it with the new rules on Diving Catch in CRP.

[Ulfast]

Of course a Khemri team with its low AG always will be bad at a passing game I still think that if you have the possiblity to build a good thrower and perhaps someone that can cath the ball yuo get a option that a lot of coaches will not suspect. And in my book more options is always better. At the same time you can argue that you can better spend those skill points on option that are safer and propably better for a khemri team, like geting the ball and not dropping it

As a question what skill would you chose for your diffrent members of your team and what to do with a double? For some members of the team it´s no problem (TG with mighty blow or guard with block on double) but what for the rest, specially the Thro-Ras and ordinary skeleton?

[mattgslater]

It's cool when a skill or skill combo lets you do something you couldn't/wouldn't do otherwise, but I'm not at all convinced that this combo is worth the investment.

First, it's not like it lets you do anything outrageous: you can QP from one guy to one guy. It doesn't improve your SPP options much, because it doesn't give you any control over where the extra SPP go. In fact, it'll cause DC-boy to hog TDs, which isn't what you want at all, at least not after he skills once for Block. The DC/HMP combo, much-maligned as it is, occasionally breaks or saves a game (though I'd not consider DC for HMP purposes on an AG2 piece). DC/Acc just brings you up from classically sucky to a low mediocre.

Second, that's a very large investment you're making. Eventually Accurate will be a good value, but KOR is better on a team that can't consistently (35/36) QP with a single passing skill (like Dwarfs). Also, in the early going you need a Block guy, and you'll have a lot of pressure to develop the #2 Thro-Ra with key skills because your skill prospects are generally poor, and the only other guys who don't have trouble doing valuable stuff (in SPP terms) start with Block anyway. If your third or fourth overall TR skill selection is Accurate (no matter whether you have one or two TRs), that's probably a good bargain.

But the double on the Skel is huge. You have plenty of guys who could get Guard, but you need to spam Mighty Blow or you're going to fall behind the improvement curve. So a Guard Skel is a huge deal. One is probably enough, but a second Guard Skel will get use too. And you can never have too much Mighty Blow. I think a lot of coaches would just ignore Dodge, but there's also Side Step; you can't have too many space-eaters, either.

So, I'd say, get the front half of that combo eventually, if you like. But your 3+ QPs will be caught on a 4+ unless/until you get a +AG guy. Accept it, because the alternative is too expensive. That means running your outer pickets a bit away from your receiver; good thing you have all that ST5! The other benefit of Accurate is that if you're just trying to get the ball downfield (that is, if an errant throw is still a success), you can lob a LB with 8/9 chance of success. I seldom do that with my Acc Orc Thrower, but it's won me games before, and is an arrow in the quiver that comes along with Accurate at any AG score.

[Ulfast]

Good advice. I think you are righ tin that team like khemri really need to think effective what is there strenght and there weakness and play on there strenghts. I still stand that options is good but options is wortless if you can´t use them because rest of team has failed.

A team like ours must be very effective to win and not let errors comes int he way. borgin perhaps for some but I love it. You can let your guard down, you have to be on the edge all the time. Wonderful For me this is something positive and and the threal with khemri.

[Smurf]

Playing your strengths is a no brainer, but plugging your weaknesses is important.

My WE team is good at moving a ball about but really awful at the hitting game. I can't get doubles to land on the right players, ie Wardancers and Line. I've had 2 catchers with doubles and both throwers with doubles. Irratating!

So if you get a chance to do something other than the 'norm' you take it to open up the game. Ball movement is a must.

Generally the Khemri team needs to think about set ups. With 4 ST5 players they are going to get the upper hand in the blocking game, then 2 ST3 with block... 6 Players that are fairly tough. 1 Thrower, just for ball handling (7 on pitch) leaving 4 Skeletons.

----|--GsG--|----
----|-s---s-|----
-Gb-|-t---s-|-bG-

This looks like a basic set up, some may rethink deployment.

Now the blocking game is fine, but the new LRB6 rules with DC allows the skeletons more chances to find a ball, not from passes but also from loose balls.

[mattgslater]

Are you suggesting that as a D setup? In that case, it's okay against ST3. Any team with 2x Guard and any ST4/Block will pretty much mow that Dline down. Even without the ST4 or with just 1x Guard, it can be managed at the cost of an action or the hazard of a 1d (probably the former). But that screen between the flanker and the midfield/safety is both weak and ill-positioned against speed; one blitz with Wrestle, and there are now two holes, one just outside of the WZ marker and maybe one going up Broadway. That implies marking the TG, but no biggie: just use a Dodge player. Heck, most elf teams have the personnel to use that Blitz-Ra to chain the TG to the sideline, where he can hit only your ST3/Dodge guy. If you mark properly with a Fend/Dodge player, the TG can't avoid getting crowded the next turn. Any ST3/AG5 elf plus any Guard elf and any ST3 Dodge/Fend elf will do, but if no AG5 is available, Leap and a TRR will do, as might Dodge and a little luck (16/27 to work, 5/27 to fall, 6/27 to use skill on 1st block with no chainpush option, assuming no TRR to be used; with a TRR, it's 64/81 to work and 17/81 to fail, so it doesn't merit 2nd dodge if Dodge was used on the first one, even with TRR). Since the TG can be pushed upfield, then particularly if the BR goes down it's not too hard to make a good downfield cage. Khemri don't have any pass rush, and there's no way to get to the ball-carrier.

Vs. speed, I'd probably cede the Dline if I didn't think i could hold it with TGs, just running 3x Skel, or maybe with a Guard/SF Blitz-Ra on the nose once I have one. That leaves my TGs to run the strong points (wing, midfield) in a standard Ziggurat. Once I start getting advanced TGs, they'd all go to the line. Two with MB/SF and one with MB/Guard... now you can start shutting down the LOS. Even 3x Guard will take control within a turn or two.

Vs. bash? Fuggedabowdit. You gotta have your TGs ready to front, or you won't stand a chance.

[Smurf]

Players gain skills and so tactics change but from a new team POV it will put up some posers.

Speed teams and you want to set up deeper.

The question is this how do you develope a team to score in 3 turns. Khemri are not going to get a 2 turner without a few rerolls. But 3 turns is possible and how do you move a ball quickly.

Seriously my mate Kev is playing them and it's a real poser because of the naf ball handling.

[mattgslater]

The question is this how do you develope a team to score in 3 turns. Khemri are not going to get a 2 turner without a few rerolls. But 3 turns is possible and how do you move a ball quickly.

Looked for, he cannot be seen.
Listened for, he cannot be heard.
Defended against, his Khemri score in 3.

This would be the true master of the Cult of Speed.