Underworld strategy advice - please help

[cyagen]

Matt, I am more then happy to get a Gobo chained blocked. Pinning 2 opponents with 1 Gobo is a deal that I would make everyday. It protects my Skavens and my Troll.

My stats took only one block into account.

FA is not better than SS but if your goal in to protect a LOS Gobo, then FA is more effective assuming only one 2d block.

SS serves another more general purpose.

[Randobot]

I'm curious to hear what offensive strategies you've had success with. I've played underworld in 2 tournaments and in 2 leagues (for a total of about 30 games) but I really struggle with offence and "won" last place in both Daggerbowl II and in Lutececup 2010.

I experimented with a cage but that always met with failure.

I tried running guys deep and setting up passes but that usually results in failure.

I tried smashing the line. Same thing. Perhaps its simply about learning advantageous moves every turn and I'll get there eventually.

I also don't understand how an 8MV linemman produces "orthodox one turn scores"?!

Thanks for any and all feedback!

[mattgslater]

Matt, I am more then happy to get a Gobo chained blocked. Pinning 2 opponents with 1 Gobo is a deal that I would make everyday. It protects my Skavens and my Troll.

Maaaybe. Maybe not. What if the follow on the #2 block drops an assist on a rat? What if the #2 block has Tackle/MB? I mean, if your Gob gets taken out of the play, it's one less guy you have and you'll suffer that much more.

[Smeborg]

I'm curious to hear what offensive strategies you've had success with. I've played underworld in 2 tournaments and in 2 leagues (for a total of about 30 games) but I really struggle with offence and "won" last place in both Daggerbowl II and in Lutececup 2010.

I experimented with a cage but that always met with failure.

I tried running guys deep and setting up passes but that usually results in failure.

I tried smashing the line. Same thing. Perhaps its simply about learning advantageous moves every turn and I'll get there eventually.

I also don't understand how an 8MV linemman produces "orthodox one turn scores"?!

Thanks for any and all feedback!

Randobot - it's very early for me (4 games with Underworld, maybe 5 or 6 against them). I find that the best style of offense is one that gives me options between running, handing-off and passing. I try not to put all my eggs in one basket. If I am in possession of the ball, I try to always end my turn with 2 players within scoring distance. How to get them there on the first turn will depend on my opponent's defensive set-up. Mostly I score with hand-offs, followed by passing, with running TDs the least common method on offense. Underworld go into the dugout quite fast, so I normally try to score quite quickly on offense, but without taking big risks.

On defense I try to put 1 player in scoring distance (typically a Gobbo) in case I turn the ball over.

By "orthodox one turn score" for an MA8 player, I mean a chain push of 3 squares from the line of scrimmage, followed by 8 squares of movement, followed by 2 go-for-its to reach the end zone. (A chain push is when you push one of your opponent's players into your own, allowing your player(s) to gain a square of movement "for free".) Depending on the circumstances, the "orthodox" one turn score method may be more probable (and less likely to lead to injury) than scoring by hurling a Gobbo. Your opponent has to defend against both methods. Of course I would normally only attempt a one-turn-score if I have an offensive drive of just one turn (ie. turn 8 or turn 16).

Hope that helps.

[Hasdrubal]

I'm curious to hear what offensive strategies you've had success with. I've played underworld in 2 tournaments and in 2 leagues (for a total of about 30 games) but I really struggle with offence and "won" last place in both Daggerbowl II and in Lutececup 2010.

I experimented with a cage but that always met with failure.

I tried running guys deep and setting up passes but that usually results in failure.

I tried smashing the line. Same thing. Perhaps its simply about learning advantageous moves every turn and I'll get there eventually.

I also don't understand how an 8MV linemman produces "orthodox one turn scores"?!

Thanks for any and all feedback!

As mentionned by Smeborg, you shouldn't put all your eggs in the same basket on offense. Try to run a couple of guys into the oppenent's field, it should be rather easy with your blitzers and 2-Headed gobbos. Cage up at midfiled to protect your ball carrier, and check what is your best option on the following turn.

You can also take advantege of your superior movement by reversing plays on the opposing line after you have attracted a pack of players close to a side line.

[Randobot]

I have been putting all my eggs in one basket so to speak, thanks for the feedback all!

[Smeborg]

Randobot, the other side of the coin is defense. While the same general principles apply (prepare a range of nasty options for your opponent for the following turn), the Underworld, as an AV7 side with lots of Stunty, live by the principle of "score first, die later". Accordingly, I always look for opportunities to attack the ball and take risks with them on defense. They are a resourceful team with lots of relevant skills for this style of play, so you will be pleasantly surprised how often a seemingly jammy play will work for them.

[Smeborg]

My team Jeepers Kreepers has played 5 games now. 4 wins and 1 draw, 11-4 in TDs and 14-14 in CAS. Relatively gentle opposition in terms of coaching experience and bashiness (Humies, Woodies, Woodies, Chaos Pact, HE), otherwise no doubt results would be worse! Here is the roster:

W-Troll: - (4 SPPs)
S-Vermin: - (5)
S-Vermin: - (4)
Thrower: +1MA, Block, mng (17)
Thrower: Leader (6)
Linerat: +1MA, Wrestle (19)
Linerat: Kick (9)
Gobbo: 2-Heads (6)
Gobbo: 2-Heads (6)
Gobbo: - (3)
Gobbo: - (3)
Gobbo: - (0)
Gobbo: - (0)
Gobbo: - (0)
Gobbo: -1MA (0)
3xRR
5xFF
40,000 in treasury
TV: 122 (will be 130 when the Thrower is back and the crippled Gobbo is retired).

The 2 players with +1MA are outstanding playmakers. The ST players are a bit retarded in their development, but this is not for lack of trying (several failed scoring attempts with the S-Vermin, multiple casualty rolls with M-Blow by the Max Planck Institute). 4 out of 5 MVPs have fallen on a Thrower and the Linerats, hence their relatively advanced development. This team looks to be a very pleasing one in development terms, as the SPPs fall very evenly. 6 players have skill advances after 5 games, and 5 more players are on the verge of their first advance. One death and two permanent injuries so far (none with SPPs), so looks like most, but not all money will be spent on new players. 6th Edition Stunty looks like it will play quite a big role in preserving skills on the Gobbos. The case for skill redundancy on the Gobbos is strong (they like to lurk in the dugout!). 3 re-rolls plus Leader seems right.

The team is resourceful and "lucky". When the "luck" ran out (2 failed pass attempts for TDs, 1 failed GFI to the end zone), the team still managed a draw against a good coach (HE). In one match (vs. Chaos Pact), there were 11 out of 14 Underworld players in the dugout at one point in the second half, but thanks to a Babe (4 KO rolls of 3 in the match) the team held on for a win, having been 2-0 up (CAS were 5-5 in this match!).

The team seems to like a scrambled type of game, with players well scattered across the pitch - very much an AG team pattern, but more wild.

All the best.

[Smeborg]

I just realised what a shame it is that mutant Gobbos didn't exist in 3rd Edition. Spikes plus Magic Helmet would have given you a rather magnificent AV9 Linegobbo for 60,000 gps (which I know is why these things no longer exist, but I might as well dream!).

[Smeborg]

I have to say that Underworld seem to be among the easiest and most pleasing of teams to play and develop, seeing how they are cheap, fast, start with some Block, Dodge, Sure Hands and Pass (in great contrast to other mutant teams), and are also the only team (I think) who have access to all skill types on a normal roll. And everybody (except the Troll) can score TDs. After just 6 admittedly lucky games, my team has reached its first development goal of getting one normal skill on all the Skaven and the Troll:

W-Troll: Claw (6)
S-Vermin: Guard (11)
S-Vermin: Guard (7)
Thrower: +MA, Block (17)
Thrower: Leader (6)
Linerat: +1MA, Wrestle (24)
Linerat: Kick (11)
Gobbo: 2-Heads (9)
Gobbo: 2-Heads (6)
Gobbo: 2-Heads (6)
Gobbo: - (3)
3 x rookie Gobbos
3 x RR
6 x FF
Apoth
TV: 139

All players seem to play their role in harmonious and cost-effective fashion. Next game is against well-coached Dwarfs (similar number of games), so that will be a nice test. In Claw we trust.

All the best.

[Hasdrubal]

Their key asset is definitemy that goblins just need 1 skill (2-Heads) be to able to move all around the pitch nearly unhindered (apart from the occasional failed dodge resulting in death) and swarm the opponent's backfield. Thanks to their speed, there seem to always to a solution to make a play with them.

[Smeborg]

Thanks, everybody, for your feedback, which I find most interesting, and of great practical value at the table.

I have a few more questions in areas where I am undecided. Mainly these relate to second/third skills on the Gobbos and the Troll. Also Gobbo doubles, and roster numbers.

I had my first taste of "medicine" a couple of days ago, when I played against Dwarfs. I lost the kick-off, and the first 3 blocks of the game saw 3 Skaven Casualties (2 Stormvermin with Guard, the Thrower with +1MA, Block). My opponent eventually won the CAS count 8-0, so it was a textbook case of playing with a disappearing team (and of course the newly acquired Claw of the Troll did not work once in the match). Thanks to the greed of my opponent, I was able to stay in the match (he went for it to the end zone when he did not need to, failed, and the ball scattered upfield 10 squares). The first half was a shutout (I was "unlucky" not to get a turnover score). Starting the second half with the Troll, 3 Skaven and 6 Gobbos, I got sacked, but managed a "lucky" score (2-Headed Gobbo took an uphill block, dodged onto the ball, picked it up in 2 tackle zones, dodged a couple more times and went-for-it a couple of times to score). Then my opponent scored easily against my 8 remaining "men", who at least forced my opponent to score early (but then failed a turn 16 one-turn attempt - the first block was a double skulls). So a match which could have been 0-2, and was nearly 2-1, ended up an honourable 1-1 draw, to the gnashing of teeth of my opponent.

The lesson from this match is that Horns and Big Hand would be the outstanding second and third normal skill choices on a Gobbo who already has 2-Heads. So I think I will go this route. As well as enabling the "miracle" plays of the above kind, it seems important to have some 2-Heads/Horns Gobbos around for when the Skaven are having Devonshire tea with Mummy (lurking in the dugout).

This reasoning also leads me to question Guard as a doubles choice on a Gobbo. Perhaps the "orthodox" Wrestle ought to be preferred instead?

For the Troll, I am wondering if Multiple Block would be a good second or third skill choice, to maximise his can-opener ability (Claw/M-Blow), in conjunction with the Stormvermins' Guard. Maybe I need to be patient, and Claw + Block + M-Block would be the combination to pray for.

I am open-minded about roster depth. I have been playing with 14 "men", 3 Re-rolls + Leader, because I like to re-inforce the lean TV of the team. This seems to be working fine so far, but I am wondering if I will need 15 or 16 "men" as the league goes on. At the moment I think not, since I estimate that a Babe (or Wandering Apoth) is worth more than a rookie Gobbo or two, and in reverse, it is not nice to give your opponent a Bribe (had I had more than 14 "men", the Dwarfs in the above match would have been able to take one). Another consideration is that 2 of the Stars are potentially outstanding (Skitter against AG, Glart against ST).

In general, it seems that active, indeed hyper-active skills for use in your own turn are to be preferred for this team over passive skills (that work in your opponent's turn). One might say the opposite of Nurgle.

Any feedback on these issues from pioneer Underworld coaches would be much appreciated.

[Ullis]

I still think that Guard on a gobbo on doubles would be great. But when would you use Wrestle, in addition to the defensive purposes? A two-headed Guard would be immensely useful. At least for me the gobbos mainly scamper around the pitch, providing assists, screening or reminding the troll to hit something. With a Guard gobbo and a Horns gobbo you could get a 2d block into the center of a cage! And a 2d block is safer (even taking into account the additional dodge for the Guard) than a 1d block with either Block or Wrestle (against a Dodge player I guess it's close to even with a slight advantage to 1d block Wrestle). And that assumes that the Wrestle and Horns is on the same gobbo! That would mean that you either take Horns first and then pray for doubles on the second roll or roll doubles on the first skill and then wait for Horns. The team can do better than -2d blocks with Wrestle.

What about a Two Headed goblin with Nerves of Steel. Extra Arms as third skill...

[cyagen]

Horns is a must for the first 2 Gobos that get a second skill, just having them on the field will scare your opponent and they will bat above their TV weight.

Big Hand and Side Step are also an option as is Foul Appearance for LOS Gobos

Do not plan on a 3rd skill, Gobos usually die before that and it is going to break your heart. (Claws for a Horns gobo, Extra Arms for a Big Hand, Jump up, Side Step or Diving T for others)

I would take Block or Wrestle on a double for a Gobo (I personally prefer Block since it keeps the little bugger on his feet), Guard is nice but with 2 Heads Gobos running around you usually get the assists you need.

Multiple Block is interesting for the Can opener Troll but IMHO he would be better served by Tentacles or Guard.

[Hasdrubal]

I've not a game where I would have liked to have a 2-Headed, Big-Handed gobbo to catch the ball in a scrum. Sadly, my gobbo was already MNGed when it could have been useful

Horns is useful too, it's another utility skill was can catch the opponent off-guard.