Inducing MVPs and FAME

[mattgslater]

Hi Matt,
this isn't meant as taunt: Seriously, you should get a team in the MBBL ... It's not really online playing.. one turn per day, 10 minutes tops ... there are some very competent coaches to compete against.

Hmmm... I'll talk to my advisor and see what she says. This is extremely tempting.

I'm a little worried by what you write about resetting, but transfering some stuff.
That certainly ruined a season for us here, before we stopped those transfers.

Man, we had some nasty early bumps with this, but the theory has been so popular that we've fixed it rather than scrapping it. What we've found is that a team that has no extra rebuild cash gets no real help from our system, but a team with 1100k or more to rebuild on can be kind of cheesy by comparison to a rookie team of the same value, or even a team that's gotten there via a good game or two. We're talking about giving the also-rans some ability to carry over cash from the previous season, but only to hire these players. That will really benefit the coaches in the middle, at the expense of the best coaches. Newbies may also suffer by comparison, but only indirectly; we already have a tradition that you start your B team against the new coach, and only face him with the big guns later in the season.

In my league, at the end of the season, we ran the championships (for the top third of the teams) and a runner-up championship for everyone else. Perhaps that might work for you?

That would work too. Our tournament is a lot of fun actually, as we open it with a ladder, so most teams spend the tournament playing at their own level. There are voluntary compensation rounds for eliminated teams. The league isn't really large enough to keep the lesser coaches from having a shot at the top three.

Heck, if you're used to giving out 3 prizes, why not have top third, middle third and bottom third championships?

Ah. The "prize" is the right to keep playing your team on in a perpetual format. Otherwise, you have to rebuild and try again next year (well, even if you win, you have to rebuild, and you have to change races, but you have one up on the board, so hey). So we'd rather have prizes for the coaches who do well in the open tourney. This stuff we're really quite happy with.

[mattgslater]

One thing we played with was letting coaches move half their inducement cash into a "development fund," using that money to buy 10k winnings at a cumulative 50k, and 0-1 bonus MVPs at a cumulative 100k. We came up with this idea as a way to let us do the same thing without creating a special fund, instead giving the team a benefit for both now and later.

Related question: what's +1 FAME worth on the pitch, just in inducement terms? If you gave a Star Player Fan Favourite and didn't change anything else in his profile, how much would you have to add to that player's cost? In a game with 4 drives, that's 10/9x +1 on Bril Coaching and Cheering Fans. +1 on Bril Coaching and Cheering Fans is worth about 2/3 of a RR, right? I mean, 1/3 more for you, and 1/3 less for the other guy. So that's 20/27x RR. An RR is half a TRR, which is worth 50-70k, so that's 10/27 x 50-70k < 30k TV, or about 70k inducement value

Then there's the 1/18 per drive of a Throw a Rock, where you'll save 1/6 injury and cause 1/6 injury, and the 1/36 of Pitch Invasion, where you'll cause up to 11/6 stun. 1/18 x 4 drives = 2/9; x 1/6 that the FAME makes the difference = 1/27 of a random injury for or against. The first part of that's basically 5,500 gold of Wizard, if 5/6 x knockdown w/MB on a player of choice when you need it = 1x injury on a random player when it happens. So it's probably about 7500 gc?

Then 1/27 of a random injury against, which is much more valuable in my book, but maybe not on paper. If an Apoth is worth 0.75 saved Casualties, but a third of the value is lost to the Reserves, then a Cas is worth 100k TV or 200k inducements. An injury against is 1/6 of that, plus 1/4 of the value of a KO, plus 7/12 of a KD plus stun, or something less than 14/12 of an action, or about an action. If a KO is worth 4 turns on average, then that's 1/6 cas plus two actions. If a skill is worth an action-per-half, that's about 50k plus 1/6 x 200k TV, or about 83k-ish. 1/27 of that is about 3k. Add it to the 7500 stab above, and you have about 10k. With the BC/CF modifier, that's about 80k cumulative.

Then 1/36 of Pitch Invasion = 1/9 per match. FAME doesn't protect you from Pitch Invasions, unless it implies that the other guy doesn't have it, which this kind of FAME doesn't. Each FAME point should take out just under two players, for just under two actions. Two players for two actions is 100k by the above logic on induced skills (which I'll admit is shaky). 1/9 of 100k is 10k, in government terms. So that's 90k in inducement value.

So does Free Beer for 150k keep it relatively balanced? You're essentially ditching a cheap card and a decent card to get +1 Winnings and a decent card, which seems about right.

The MVP is trickier, as the long-term value is great and the short-term value is uncertain. This makes me think that letting coaches pick their MVP might be a better idea. But the idea of a skill for the match and an assigned MVP at 200k or less scares me, as does the idea of inducing what amounts (now) to a single skill for 200k or more.

Ooh...
Inspiration (150k): When the going gets tough, the tough get going! One of your players, chosen at random, psyches himself up for this match against a strongly-favoured opponent! You may assign that player any one normal skill for this match only. At the end of the match, the player gains a free MVP award; remove the player from the pool of eligible players for the MVP.

[Oxynot]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but
My problem, the raison d'être of this entire thread, is that some teams won't make it to the tournament with a full suite of games, and I want to solve this problem through inducements.

If the problem is mainly related to the end season tournaments and coach with varying amount of freetime for matches during the season itself, you could try to solve the problem at that point.

For example giving the teams that have less games then the one with the most during the current season giving a number extra MVP equal to the disparity of the number of matches played. Or maybe the half the amount, but in reality the teams that actually played the matches ought to get more SPP (and gold) than one MVP per match.

This does not help the stragglers during the season, but would help boost them for the play-offs. Fluffwise, maybe those teams spent the time the others used for actual matches on training camps.

Just throwing the idea out there, because if those teams that already struggle have to "waste" their inducements on development instead of leveling the field in the current match, they only struggle that much more.

To sum things up, a MVP is a poor substitute for the rewards of a real match, but it is better than nothing. Even taking into account the risk of injuries.

[mattgslater]

For example giving the teams that have less games then the one with the most during the current season giving a number extra MVP equal to the disparity of the number of matches played.

That would be interesting. Mind you, early MVPs mean early improvement, which means more SPP down the road, and this doesn't really do that. I'm not even sure 1 MVP per match not played would do it. I'm also a little concerned about perverse incentives: I don't ever want to give anybody a reason not to play a match.

Just throwing the idea out there, because if those teams that already struggle have to "waste" their inducements on development instead of leveling the field in the current match, they only struggle that much more.

That's definitely my obstacle. That's why I'm looking to an alternative for just the MVP and winnings in the form of FAME and pre-match improvements. What I'm really trying to get to is a B-grade inducement that also comes with an overpriced long-term benefit.

By the way, that's exactly what a Wandering Apothecary is. Just sayin'. I really imagine the Wandering Apo and Igor as one leg of a three-legged stool: protect yourself from falling further (Apo), increase the odds of getting back to your feet or to your early peak (Free Beer), develop prospects for the future (Inspiration). But you're right, they all have to do something now.

[mattgslater]

Okay, I think I'm to Version 2 for Free Beer and Inspiration. If you like it, but see a Yankee spelling, let me know.

0-2 Free Beer (100k/250k). Maybe money can't buy you love, but money can buy beer for your fans. Fuelled by suds, your fans go crazy! For 100,000 gold, you buy a round for the whole house, and your FAME for this match is 1. For 250,000 gold, you promote the free beer to ensure a great turnout; your FAME for this match is 2. Note that this does not affect your opponent's FAME. If 10,000 fans turn out for your side and 11,000 fans show for the other side, the opponent has FAME 1, too. This also does not increase any FAME you already had, unless you buy more Free Beer than you had FAME. This FAME applies for all purposes, including Winnings.

0-1 Inspiration (200k). When the going gets tough, the tough get going! One of your players, chosen at random, psyches himself up for this match against a strongly-favoured opponent! You may assign that player any one normal skill for this match only. At the end of the match, the player gains a free MVP award; remove the player from the pool of eligible players for the MVP. Inspiration is a state of mind, and can't be induced from Petty Cash.

This way, you don't pay much of a premium at all for the 10k cash, except for having to buy +1 FAME at 100k in order to get it. There's also no way to engineer more than 90k/match Winnings. Inspiration looks like an overpayment, but really not so much. I mean, if you want to get a skill on a player through inducements, you need to have a) an opening at the position, and b) the player's value +80k, which is between 100k (Snot) and 230k (Mino). You get an extra body, but it's a non-earning body. Inspiration buys you a skill if you have a) a player at the position, and b) 200k, probably just a tad more. It doesn't give you a body, but it does give you a long-term benefit for what is in practice probably a Babe or a downgrade on a more expensive inducement.

I think it's important for balance to make Inspiration random; otherwise, it's way better on teams with a P-access player, as it basically functions as Extra Training plus 10k/SPP. But if it's random, that's just the upside, which is fine. I think I've eliminated any risk of cheese with Free Beer by having it set FAME at 1-2; that way an elf team with FAME already can't go fishing for kickoffs nearly so easily.

WDYT?

[Ullis]

I like Inspiration. I'm also coming around to ditching my reservations about inducing SPP's. Many people really like the team building aspect of BB and that would suit them. It can also suit a league pretty well, say for teams that didn't make the qualifiers for the final or something. Or for a team that has already qualified and tries to build up as much as possible before the final games. And Inspiration has an effect that helps with winning the match at hand too.

I still think that playing to win every match is important, but that can't really be forced on people, we can only encourage it.

Well done on Inspiration, matt. It might not even need be random. But be wary of players inducing it all the time. If it becomes standard fare for underdogs, then get rid of it.

[plasmoid]

Hi Matt,
my head is exploding, so I'll just stick to the factual stuff:
Both the wandering apoth and the Igor have an (at least potential) in-game effect.
I know that that was deliberate.

Like I said earlier, I'd have no problem with giving away some free cash or some SPPs. I just wouldn't do it with the inducement system, as it runs contrary to the intent of the inducement system.

Cheers
Martin

[mattgslater]

Martin,

Read my last post above this one. Does it solve your concerns?

In short, if your FAME is 0, you can buy FAME 1 for 100k, or FAME 2 for 250k. (Okay, you could buy FAME 2 for 250k if your FAME were 1, too... but why?) This FAME doesn't affect your opponent's FAME, so both sides could get a bonus, which per the rules would cancel out on Cheering Fans, Bril Coaching or Throw a Rock, and would apply both ways on Pitch Invasion. You can induce a skill on a random player for 200k, and that guy gets a free MVP after the match.

So you pay a little premium for those inducements compared to their in-game value, but you get a long-term bennie, much like the Apoth and Igor. In the case of the first level of Free Beer, the premium is merely a rounding error (that is, I'd rather have an extra TRR than FAME 1, but not by much). The premium for Inspiration is a lot higher... until you consider that the only way to get the same bennie is to hire a Merc for almost the same cost.

[plasmoid]

Yes. Much to my surprise, I can say that I like the final result.
Well done, IMO

[Smurf]

Free Beer!

Roll 3dice to determine fame!

That would work.

[Oxynot]

Okay, I think I'm to Version 2 for Free Beer and Inspiration. If you like it, but see a Yankee spelling, let me know.
0-2 Free Beer (100k/250k). Maybe money can't buy you love, but money can buy beer for your fans. Fuelled by suds, your fans go crazy! For 100,000 gold, you buy a round for the whole house, and your FAME for this match is 1. For 250,000 gold, you promote the free beer to ensure a great turnout; your FAME for this match is 2. Note that this does not affect your opponent's FAME. If 10,000 fans turn out for your side and 11,000 fans show for the other side, the opponent has FAME 1, too. This also does not increase any FAME you already had, unless you buy more Free Beer than you had FAME. This FAME applies for all purposes, including Winnings.

Fluffwise I'd go for an extra d6 on the gate roll to represent the amount of extra fans that show up. Then it opens up the option that it wont give any help at all, so effectively wasting your inducements. So maybe it is better this way. Although can't think of a team I'd induce this with expect maybe halflings to deny extra rerolls and even then after the other 'compulsory' inducements.

0-1 Inspiration (200k). When the going gets tough, the tough get going! One of your players, chosen at random, psyches himself up for this match against a strongly-favoured opponent! You may assign that player any one normal skill for this match only. At the end of the match, the player gains a free MVP award; remove the player from the pool of eligible players for the MVP. Inspiration is a state of mind, and can't be induced from Petty Cash.

At least sounds appropriate to me. Especially since it is a random player. Otherwise it could be an almost certified skill for some tough to skill players like a rookie snow trolls.

[mattgslater]

Fluffwise I'd go for an extra d6 on the gate roll to represent the amount of extra fans that show up. Then it opens up the option that it wont give any help at all, so effectively wasting your inducements. So maybe it is better this way.

We considered and rejected that for two reasons.

1) As you mention, it's very random. Sometimes it'll help and sometimes it won't. Sometimes it's a killer.

2) Against high-TV opposition, it's basically -1 FAME for your opponent, rather than +1 FAME for yourself. That doesn't give you any money, but rather messes with the cash flow of teams that are probably also paying SE.

If it's too weak, we could move the Gate up to the same phase as the Weather Table, so you know what the FAME situation is before you roll. Our old timers always automatically roll Gate immediately after Weather anyway, just because that's the way it was done in 3rd ed.

Although can't think of a team I'd induce this with expect maybe halflings to deny extra rerolls and even then after the other 'compulsory' inducements.

Any team that really needs to make a purchase and isn't sure it can make that one buy after the match? Like if you start with 20k in the bank and want to be sure you can get an Apothecary? Or if you're going up against Halflings, or against an overdog that doesn't have enough TRRs? If nobody takes anything else, that's actually worse than if nobody takes Free Beer.