Chaos Dwarf team at development crossroads - please help

[Smeborg]

My CD team, the Spikeheads, is as follows after 13 games (we have a nice open league with lots of variety, only Khemri and Undead are unrepresented):

Bull: B-Tackle, +1MA (26)
Bull: B-Tackle, +1MA (17)
CD: Claw (11)
CD: Guard (11)
CD: Guard (7)
CD: Guard (7)
CD: - (4)
CD: - (2)
Hobgob: Block (15)
Hobgob: Block (10)
Hobgob: Block (8)
3 Rookie Hobgobs (no SPPs)
3 Re-rolls
Apoth
FF: 6

I am happy without a Mino, although I am open-minded, and have been known to induce one. Results are average by my standards (6 wins, 2 draws, 4 losses). 2 of the 3 Guards have only just been acquired, thanks to MVPs. 3 Hobgoblins have been lost to death and retirement with 26 SPPs between them, also 2 CDs with just 2 SPPs between them.

Now, I started this team with the idea of giving the ball to the Hobgobs a lot, and skilling them up, and not using the Bulls as ball carriers (which was my strategy with previous teams). It seems to me that the new strategy has already failed, as not one Hobgob has got to a second skill, despite my best efforts to give them SPPs. Tellingly, the skilled Hobgobs seem simply to die, taking precious SPPs with them. A majority of TDs have been scored by Hobgoblins (8 to 6), but 6 of the 8 TDs scored by the Hobgobs are no longer on the roster (whereas all 6 TDs scored by the Bulls have been retained).

It seems I will be much better off with this team reverting to a policy of giving the ball to the Bulls, especially now that both have B-Tackle, +1MA (an awesome combination). This implies giving Sure Hands to the Bulls next, and Wrestle to any further Hobgobs that skill up (the Block Hobgoblins will still make good receivers and utility players in case of need).

My questions for experienced CD coaches who like to give the ball to Hobgobs are: (a) Why should I not give the ball to the Bulls who retain their SPPs and are rather good as Runners anyway (in the case of this team their movement is higher by 2 and more reliable)?, and (b) If you can persuade me to run the ball with Hobgobs (I am genuinely open-minded), what might I be doing "wrong" in terms of team development and tactical play?

All the best.

[Grumbledook]

hard to know where its going wrong for you really

not sure I'd have taken the MA and break tackle on the bulls, do you do much hitting with them? I'd like to have block

may have been tempted to get guard rather than claw as well for the first skill, especially given that you said you just got two of those guard, note i took a double as first skill after i already had some guard

I also start with 4 rerolls and one centaur, then get the apoth and a Mino, the mino just helps a lot with the caging game and ST5 is harder to deal with than ST4

you can get by without dodging the bulls with positioning

I've got a team on stuntyleeg.com that is 6/0/0 and the bull i had from the start doesn't even have a skill yet

maybe my extra reroll lets me keep the hobbos out of trouble, more freedom to dodge etc
extra rerolls also let you get a bit more aggressive with blocking from the dwarfs, even rerolling double pushes etc if you are getting near the end of the half with plenty to spare

without seeing how you really are playing it is hard to say where it is going wrong

the roster is http://www.stuntyleeg.com/handler.php?t ... detailed=0 I don't remember having +ST on the team, must have got that after the last game, along with purchasing the second centaur iirc (I don't get much time to play atm)

I think my general game plan is to tie their players up with the dwarfs and centaurs so i'm dictating the blocking

don't think hobbos really tend to get past two skills anyway even as you get more, they do tend to get hurt over time but they do pretty much just sit around in a cage

the team history and replays of those 6 games should be on the site, only one i really remember was the first one where i pretty much cleared the pitch against a pro elf team

believe i've had journymen and a couple of stars (play random match ups against all kinda of TV teams)

on the flip side of using a bull in a cage, surely that means you are going to lose even more hobbos, it is easier to protect them with a bull being outside (or part of) the cage and then getting block + fend on the hobbos which again helps with keeping them alive

what really are your centaurs contributing at the moment with just break tackle and +MA? that is 190k x 2 players who can't really hit, have no guard and are low agility, with positioning and forethought they should either be free to move, able to hit someone or you should be able to block them free

as my centaurs aren't skilled (and i just got the second) the teams do seem rather different

totally rambled through that whole post, hope you can find some tidbits of useful stuff in it, pretty much just spewed thoughts out as they came to me ;]

[Joemanji]

I think you have just been unlucky. I've got a TV>230 CD team and none of my Hobgoblins have died. The reason you should skill them is because at high TVs you can't risk a 4+ pickup against Elves etc. Plus unskilled Hobs are fodder, you need to develop them for the sake of the team.

[ZootSuitJeff]

Although I played in a pretty bashy league with my CDs, but my take is that you should really expect your hobgoblins to get more than about 1 skill. They are just too squishy compared to the rest of your team to make it worth developing them into star players. Of course, after one season with my 1630 TV team, I ended up with a couple of monster centaurs, which I guess is what happens when you don't mess around too much with the hobgoblins. I had one with Block, Break Tackle, Sure Hands, +1 Ag and the other with Block, +1St, +1Ag, Break Tackle. So most of my Hobgoblins were one trick ponies, if they had anything at all, and were just for specific roles, Kick, +1MA, sure hands, Wrestle, etc.

[Smeborg]

Thanks, guys.

I find the Bulls incredibly useful once they have just B-Tackle. They are utility players with range and strength that can do pretty much everything. Of course with +1MA as well they are just plain awesome. I would consider a Bull with just Block as an overpriced (by 50,000) Black Orc!

One stat I find quite interesting is that when I use the Hobgobs to run the ball, I average 1 TD per game. If I use the Bulls, I average 1.5. This stat is quite consistent in both leagues and tournaments.

I have certainly been "unlucky" with Hobgob injuries, but after 13 games of trying to skill them up I still do not have one with 2 skills. This is beginning to look like a pretty strong pattern. They are much easier to sack when holding the ball than a Bull, and they go squish when it happens as well.

[Punk_in_Drublic]

I guess it comes down to your playstyle.
If you can be bothered, here's my own team after 15 matches http://bloodbowl.krokodille.com/team.php?id=201

Sure I've lost 3 hobbos - one with 21 SPP and one with 15 SPP, but I still like to have the choice between playing the cage-game with a hobbo as the ball carrier or just go for the quick touchdown with a cow.

When I cage up for the 2-1 grind, I like to use the cows to act as corner guards, or blitz down threats that are too far away for me to reach them with my more unreliable mino or the slow dwarves. (the reason why I bought a mino was the +str I got on one of the cows - giving me two str5 threats).

I like the sure hands, block hobbo for more reliable ball handling, as the agi 2 can really come back and bite you in the ass. I think going for just two agi2 players as your main ball handlers is too risky.

[Smeborg]

Thanks, Punk. I like the idea of a Block, Sure Hands Hobgob, to be followed by (say) KoR, Fend. Obviously you cannot rely solely on the Bulls for ball handling, especially if it is raining, you need to pick the ball up in a TZ, you are out of re-rolls, etc.

But I have seen nothing yet to persuade me that the Hobgobs are better as the primary ball carriers on the team (and I am willing to be persuaded).

[Grumbledook]

perhaps they aren't, but the centaurs are much better not being the ball carriers which is the crux of it in my eyes

[lerchey]

I played about a dozen games last year against a buddies CD team. His bull centaurs were used as ball carriers occasionally, but only when he was either in very desperate straights, or if there was a toucbback. The BC is an excellent ball *carrier*, but not a ball *getter*. IIRC, one of his BCs had Break Tackle (which he used with great frequency to make sure that the BC was always where it needed to be) and the other had Mighty Blow.

He mostly used his hobgoblins as ball carriers, protecting them with the BCs and CDs. They had good mobility, and with decent protection, they were hard to get at to take down. I recall him periodically having them KO'd and maybe a CAS or two, but they didn't die like goblins or 'flings.

I think that he won about 50% of his games playing against various teams of mine, all at close enough TVs that we didn't have much of anything in the way of inducements.

If I had a CD team, I think that I would develop my BCs as hitters (block, break tackle, maybe mighty blow, maybe tackle) unless one got an AG boost, in which case I might use him more as a ball carrier.

[juck101]

From a bad CD player:

I see the BC as a glorious blitzer and the centre pin of my actions as he's a expensive versatile player. The rest of the squad are totally bland but solid.

I would say my results tend to suck compared to players who view the side as a single entity, and tend to play a solid blocking position based game rather than try to exploit the dynamic possibilities of the side.

Maybe your experience using the BCs, made you see the possible single entity and synergy of the side before. Using hobos now seams too free up the bcs in your mind, but you are looking for more out of them rather than sticking to a side with 9 strength players and getting stuck into a blocking game.

[Grumbledook]

getting stuck into the blocking game is fine for offence with them and their speed helps to move a cage forward as well

on defence though they operate as the dynamic blitzing style you described

at least that is how I play them, sure hands just makes them worse at both these roles when a hobbo can just as easily get it, but a hobbo can't really compete in either of the other roles that a well equipped centaur can

[Smeborg]

I see 6 CDs as more than adequate to play the blocking game all by themselves, especially once they start skilling up (my team under discussion has only just turned this first corner).

I see the Bulls as equally dynamic on both offense and defense. I am more than happy to block or blitz with them before they get blocking skills, especially if I have a re-roll in hand.

We'll see what happens now - the team certainly looks rather dynamic to me on paper, albeit still under construction.

[Insane_Prophet]

After twelve games my current Chaos Dwarf team has scored 19 Touchdowns, 9 of which were scored by Bull Centaurs and 8 by the Hobgoblins. Due to some mad luck 4 of my MVPs have landed a single Hobgoblin, who now has Sure Hands, Block, and Kick-Off Return.

Most of the time my Star Hobgoblin serves as my ball carrier due to his AG3 and Sure Hands. I want to minimise my chance of failing to pick up the ball and giving my opponent and chance to counter attack. The Bull Centaur TDs have been a result of attempted 2 turn TDs and a desire to funnel SPPS towards them to speed up their development.

To my mind the Hobgoblins make better ball carriers due to their superior agility. Unskilled they're better at collecting the ball and dodging out a bad spot than a rookie Bull. A Hobgoblin inside a cage made up of Chaos Dwarfs and Bulls seems pretty save to me. I'd rather have the ST4 on the outside than the inside.

I like the Bulls to provide some extra muscle in the scrum that's mobile enough to get where I need it. When things do go wrong they're my safeties and the players I tend to look to to re-secure the ball and bring it back upfield.

With all of that said, I'd rather that my Bull Centaurs were scoring Touchdowns than my Hobgoblins due to their superior durability and the fact that they otherwise take a long time to skill up. If they're working well as ball carriers for you I'd stick with that, at least until they reach that third skill. But like Joemanji said, you'll need to skill the Hobgoblins up at some point, and I think you really do at least need the option of an AG3 Sure Hands Pick up against the Ag teams that can capitalise on a failure

I'd be inclined to say that you've just been unlucky with your Hobgoblins, unless they just don't fit into your personal approach to the team. I know that I loath to let my opponents get a shot on my little bastards and focus most of my tactics around bullying my opposition and protecting the Hobgoblins. I don't think you can afford to let them get hit since they're so fragile and the only AG3 guys on your team (most opponents seem to headhunt them). If you're already confident in using your Bulls as ball carriers I'd argue that adding in Hobgoblins who *can* comfortably step into that role will just give you more options on the field.

[Grumbledook]

Centaurs tend to pick up touchdowns on defence after you blitzed with them and then go to pick the ball up. Or if a drive goes a bit tits up. Or you can feed them TD if you want them to get SPP and the situation seems safe if it goes wrong.