1500 Orc team

[Ferran]

Hi, just wanted some advice on a tournament I plan on entering next month.

The rules (though not yet finalised) are -

1500 to spend
skill upgrades may be bought at 20k first skill, 30k second skill, 40k third skill
only 5 players in a team may be upgraded
Team resets after each round
Swiss

I used to play a lot of BB in the 90s but haven't played since then. The tournament is being run by a local gaming club and this will be my first foray back into gaming in a long time. I'll be taking orcs as they are my favourite team, though I imagine that some pretty nasty agility teams could be built under the tournament rules.

I was thinking the following -

1x Troll (Guard/Stand Firm) 110+20+30
2x BoB (block/Guard) 160+40+60
2x BoB 160
1x Blitzer (Wrestle/Tackle) 80+20+30
3x Blitzer 240
1x Thrower (Block/Kick) 70+20+30
1x Lineorc 50
1x Goblin 40
4x Re-rolls 240

1500 total

The team is very re-roll heavy but this is unavoidable with so much cash to spend, though I suppose I could drop a re-roll, upgrade the gobbo sub to a lineorc, and spend the remainder on a third skill for one of my players. I'm not sure about kick on the thrower. Also is there any value in having wrestle on a tackle blitzer?

I am not anticipating that I'll do very well as I'm out of practice, though there will be a BB bootcamp in the run-up to the tournament. The basic plan is to have the troll on point, providing guard to the BoBs and basically getting in the way of any central drive by the opposition, and maybe even an occasional 3 die block. On offense it would be a basic cage drive up the centre.

I could also take Chaos Dwarves, 1500 provides enough resources to take 2x block/break Centaurs and a minotaur.

Any advice would be much appreciated.

[mattgslater]

Any nonstandard improvements allowed?

[mattgslater]

All-around version
1x Troll
4x BOB
4x Blitzer
2x Thrower
1x Goblin
2x TRR
Thrower with Block, Accurate, Leader
Blitzer with Frenzy, Stand Firm, Mighty Blow
BOB with Block, Guard, Stand Firm
Troll with Guard, Stand Firm, Grab
(Blitzer with Stand Firm, Tackle, Mighty Blow) or (BOB with Guard, Block, Mighty Blow)

MB-heavy version
1x Troll
4x BOB
4x Blitzer
1x Thrower
1x Lineman
1x Goblin
3x TRR
Blitzer with Frenzy, Stand Firm, MB
Blitzer with Stand Firm, MB
BOB with Block, Stand Firm, MB
BOB with Block, Stand Firm, MB
BOB with Block, Guard, MB

[Ferran]

Thanks for the response. Yes non-standard skills are allowed - we will be rolling the skills (as the rules stand at the moment) I don't think there will be more than a dozen players so it should be ok. I didn't specify this as it is going to be pretty random so I'll have to wing it. Of course some would be no-brainers like +ag thrower or +st blitzer but I haven't really thought about doubles, mainly because the rules aren't finalised so I might be wasting my time.

So you think buying the more expensive third skills is a better route than having more re-rolls? I suppose it will increase my chances of doubles. As I say though this will be my return to BB after many years away so I'm thinking I'll make mistakes. This is also why I didn't take any frenzy.

What's the theory behind blitzers with stand firm/frenzy? Are they placed on LoS? Or is standfirm used to maintain tackle zone on ball carriers?
Is a frenzy/standfirm blitzer better than tackle/wrestle for sacking ball carriers?
Would kick be worth taking with this team/tournament?

Also I wanted to go guard-heavy as I'm sure I won't be able to place my players in the optimum position. I was thinking maybe have the troll in the middle of LoS, flanked by 2 blitzers, with the 2 guard BoBs next to them, no gaps. Not sure how this would work in practice though.

Also I'm thinking that the thrower will be running only (though with the potential of an agility/catch blitzer this might not be the case), is it worth spending 40k to take accurate on a running thrower?

[mattgslater]

Substitute Guard for Stand Firm on the BOBs if you like. That works. The Blitzers with Frenzy/Stand Firm are for the wings, so as to drive action into the interior, where your ST advantage is a really big deal. This also is good for marking and screening, as the player can't just be pushed aside. Frenzy/Stand Firm is a great combo, as the second block can generally push a receiver upfield, and ensure a square mark, which given Stand Firm is a serious matter. If you're not comfy with Frenzy, take Tackle.

On the hit, Wrestle/Tackle > Frenzy/Block/SF for sacking. But that's not the whole story. Beyond the greater applicability of F/B/S, Orcs don't need Wrestle. Wrestle is for the pansy teams. Who would you put it on? A Lino or Goblin with Wrestle isn't bad, but you can't afford to be skilling Linos or Goblins, given that you only get 5 skilled players. BOBs are too slow, Blitzers have Block, and you don't want your Throwers on the ground. You need instead to make do without Wrestle, by taking Block and skills that have combo value with Block, like Frenzy, Tackle, Guard, Stand Firm and Mighty Blow.

4x TRR makes sense if you don't take a skilled Thrower. If you do, take 3x TRR and give your Thrower Leader. My philosophy is that it's best to take just enough TRRs and spend the rest on your team. But if you're a novice, that extra RR is probably worth it.

Orcs are slow and powerful, and benefit from shortening and narrowing the field. Guard is decent for this, and is generally a great skill. Stand Firm is great for this, and is generally a decent skill.

If you want to load up on MB, skill Blitzers and BOBs. If you want to load up on Block and Guard, skill BOBs and the Troll.

[Ferran]

ok I might try this

1x Troll (Grab/Guard/Stand Firm) 110+20+30+40
2x BoB (Block/Guard) 160+40+60
2x BoB 160
1x Blitzer (Frenzy/Stand Firm) 80+20+30
3x Blitzer 240
1x Thrower (Block/Leader) 70+20+30
1x Thrower 70
1x Goblin 40
3x Re-rolls 180

1500 total

Changed thrower's Kick to Pro, allowing me to drop a RR. Spent additional 60k to upgrade the lineorc to a thrower (so I'll have 2x Surehands in the backfield for recieving) and put Grab on the troll for additional control in the centre. Changed the blitzer skills to Frenzy/Standfirm, to help funnel players on his widezone into the centre. He can also still be my sacker - extra blocks using Frenzy, and harder to shift his TZ from carriers due to Stand Firm.

I might also drop the gobbo and buy an extra skill, increasing my doubles chances, though having only 11 players might be too risky.

Alternatively I could lose a RR and change the second thrower to a lineorc, and spend the additional 80k on skills. I'll probably have to see how many RR I need in some practice games.

[Grumbledook]

matt, you suggest stand firm a lot in here, but have you every taken it at a tournament because both block and guard seem both more useful and taken far more often

[Ferran]

On second thoughts I'm unsure about Grab on the troll. I had planned the troll to be defensive due to being Really Stupid, this would be doubly the case if I'm down 1 RR. Maybe I should take an unskilled troll? Most teams are going to be underdogs to Block/Guard BoBs on the LoS, so perhaps I could spend his skill points on a Frenzy/Stand Firm/Strip Ball(or MB) Blitzer instead? Also I figure the increased chances of doubles/+stat are probably better on a blitzer than on a troll.

[Ferran]

1x Troll 110
2x BoB (Block/Guard) 160+40+60
2x BoB 160
1x Blitzer (Frenzy/Stand Firm) 80+20+30
1x Blitzer (Frenzy/Stand Firm/Tackle) 80+20+30+40
2x Blitzer 240
1x Thrower (Block/Leader) 70+20+30
1x Thrower 70
1x Goblin 40
3x Re-rolls 180

1500 total

With the above team my recieving setup would look like this



I assume the kicker would place the ball as indicated, they'd have to be unlucky to clear the pitch from there. If they kicked 1 space nearer the endzone there's more chance of clearing the field and also a possibility of scattering onto a thrower. 2 spaces nearer the EZ would mean a high chance of a touchback (unless they have kick of course, which seems to be quite a valuable skill as far as I can see)

The frenzy blitzers are stationed on the wings to avoid frenzy problems on the LoS. The unskilled BoBs are a little closer to the centre and LoS due to their low movement. I'd start by moving the skilled catcher into the middle of the cage area. Then the flank BoBs would move to form the sides of the cage, as would the Blitzer furthest from the ball. The one nearer the ball would stay put incase of a turnover. Then I'd go for the "safe" blocks - probably the LoS Blitzers with assists from the LoS Guard BoBs, then probably the LoS BoBs would throw their blocks depending on what the opponent has on the LoS. Then I'd go to pick up the ball with the unskilled thrower (assuming the opponent kicks nearer to him instead of the skilled thrower). Providing all goes well I'd then think of moving the last Blitzer and the troll would move (possibly blitz). Turn 2 I'd think of handing off to the skilled thrower.

Would this setup and turn sequence be any good?

[mattgslater]

matt, you suggest stand firm a lot in here, but have you every taken it at a tournament because both block and guard seem both more useful and taken far more often

I'd only ever recommend it for Orcs, and generally only in really skilly formats, as tournaments go (like this one). I'd never, ever fault anybody for taking Block or Guard over Stand Firm (except maybe Guard on a guy who's always making the hit or always on an island), but the reverse is pretty situational. Stand Firm happens to be really good for some things that are really important; if you can't get maximum bang for that, it's a B skill. Orcs are kind of anomalous in that they couple a nigh-indomitable front five with a quality, cost-efficient backfield. There aren't any other teams that do both those things that well, until very high development levels.

Also, Orcs have the horizontal finesse to play two different games vs. bash teams, and the firepower not to need much Guard against the light teams. This means that a skill that's kind-of-good against everybody (Stand Firm) is a better spam skill than a skill that's really good against some opponents (Guard). On a onesy-twosy basis Guard is much better because it's got broad application, but if you're trying to lay down four of them, it's a different game.

Guard #1 is priority #1, though. Beyond that, it's very nice but not your only option. For one thing, an ST3 team with 2x Guard and any Block will get 2d across a whole line of BOBs 75% of the time, no matter how much Guard you have, frequently with all the extra blocks you could want, and almost always with a 1d (skilled vs. rookie) for every 2d the offense doesn't manage to get. Block/Guard is tempting, as long as you can put both skills on both ends.

@ Ferran: make that play public!

[Ferran]

Switched to public.

Here's what I envision at the end of my first turn



Maybe move the blitzer (or the skilled thrower) into assist range of the thrower to guard against determined high mv/ag blitz?

As far as the tournament format being silly, I agree that it does seem a bit leftfield. I checked the popular formats (on this forum) and advised the organiser but beyond that I can't do much more. As I say I am new to the club and wouldn't want to step on any toes. I'm sure it will be fun regardless.

[Ferran]

Also, been thinking about juggernaut on one of the skilled blitzers. SF/Frenzy on one to specialise in funneling to the centre. Frenzy, juggernaut, + tackle or MB on another to specialise in sacking.

[Ferran]

Right, I set up some offensive turns. Fairly optimistic and simplistic but it's my starting theory before the practice games.

Team is-

1x Troll 110
2x BoB (Block/Guard) 160+40+60
2x BoB 160
1x Blitzer (Guard/Stand Firm) 80+20+30
1x Blitzer (Frenzy/Juggernaut/Mighty Blow) 80+20+30+40
2x Blitzer 160
1x Thrower (Block/Leader) 70+20+30
1x Thrower 70
1x Goblin 40
3x Re-rolls 180

1500 total

Blitzer are labelled Z in the maps

Set-up

Lots of muscle on the LoS to prevent any dwarf/undead/bashy human types overpowering me and ruining my plans. 2 throwers in the backfield. One flank/thrower is protected by the Guard/Stand Firm blitzer. Assuming my opponent kicks conservatively towards my weaker thrower. If they try to flood my backfield I can move a few of the front players back a little.

Turn 1 end

One thrower moves into the cage. The Guard blitzer moves back to cover the second thrower. Blocks and follow-ups on the LoS. Finally the second thrower picks up the ball and moves towards the cage. Assuming the opponent sets up a little way back from the halfway line I think it would take some serious heroics to hurt either of my throwers from this position.

Turn 2 end

Second thrower hands off to skilled thrower. In reality this would be too risky so I'd probably move the skilled thrower to the rear of the cage. I'd prefer him to be carrying the ball with his block skill but his block is ok for use at the rear of the cage. The cage continues a relentless crawl forward.

Turn 5 end

By this point the cage is making good progress due to knock-downs/stuns/KOs. Opposition casualties (complimented by the placement of pushbacks) means I'm veering to the right flank. Maybe my frenzy blitzer has pushed something into the crowd, or at least pushed flankers to the centre. The front and sides of the cage are impenetrable due to the flanking Guard BoBs, opponent has attacked at the back and the rearguard thrower has been KOd. BoBs move to close the gap.

Turn 7 end

By this point I've lost a LoS player due to sheer amount of blocks. Backfield blitzers move forward. One blitzer runs to endzone, creating a not entirely credible pass threat, but mainly for diversion, maybe the opponent moves to cover it. Thrower is ready to hand off to a blitzer (...in league play to spread SPPs), but 99% chance that I'll make a gap in the cage front for the thrower to run in the score.

[Gesmachiene]

On your setup, there are 3 players in either wide-zone, which is probably just a small error.
However, after turn 1, I believe your thrower in the middle is extremely vulnerable for AG4 teams (even AG3 with dodge). With only one dodge a MV 6 player who is one square away from your front-line, can get to this thrower. If more players get down there, you might get a line of players between the ball and the frontline.

[Ferran]

Hmm yes, I was being a little rough but I suppose it makes sense to be precise (especially with the planning tools available) as it could make all the difference. To be honest I wasn't sure anyone would bother trying to get a player or two so deep into my backfield early on without any support, but I suppose it is probably a valid tactic to mess up my drive from the start.

I've ammended map 2 & 3 in the original post, though since I'm being more precise I'd have to note that it's probably going to take more than 2 turns to get my carrier deep into the cage without using GFIs or a hand off. Then again I had read that MA5 is a weakness on the orc thrower so I guess this is to be expected.

Also ammended setup to reduce widezone players.