Removing A From Elf Linos

[gandresch]

Hi,

nearly every team has a lineman position. Nearly all of the teams have only General access with the linos. Has somebody ever thought about, taking away the access for Agility skills for elf linos? What would that do to the game?
I often thought about that, because the Blodge on the linos makes elves a very ungrateful opponent. And it is unfair against nearly all other races, who only have catchers (ok, Slann have blitzers, too, but e.g. CD do not have A access) to get access to this skill tree.
This is only about the linos!

I think, that someone will tell me sure, that dwarves have linos with two accesses, too. That's true! So take away their S access, too (not for CD, because CD Blocker are a position), but increase perhaps the number of Blitzers to 4.
(i know, the ideas might not be brilliant at first, but think about it)

What would you think about the idea? Would it make games more interesting?

Greets,
gan

[Darkson]

And are you going to also take S access away from the linos (or equivalents) of all those teams that have it (e.g Chaos)?

[gandresch]

Hi,

i first thought about that, but i don't think, that would be a good idea - although i knew, this question would come .
Let me first list all teams, where it would be important, because the "Lineman" have more than 1 access. I do not count mutations, they are fluffy - so Nurgle doesn't really count for me in the list.
Chaos (Beastmen)
Dark Elf (Linos)
Dwarf (Blocker)
Elf (Linos)
High Elf (Linos)
Wood Elf (Linos)

and noncompetitive: Chaos Pact

At first, why do i not count Chaos Pact and Nurgle. Hard to explain! A Rotter in a Nurgle team can take GM on a skill, and a Marauder can take ... everything but A. Mutations do not really count for me on linos as an own category and the idea behind the Marauders is the reason, they are like that. With no skills in the whole team, they need the access.

So we have left all Elves, Dwarves and Chaos teams. The question stays: Is the access for A and elf linos or S and dwarf blocker really neccessary? I would say, this is not the case.
1. Take away the A acess for the elves' linos
2. Take away S access from the Blocker of the dwaves. Because the team is based on the strength of the linos, i would prefer to add 2 blitzers.
3. Let the beastmen keep their S access. With only Horns and the variety of the skills they can get, the team must have more possibilities to go for, than the average team has. Beastmen for me are not the prototype of a lineman in a team with only 2 positions.

Greets,
gan

[Rhyoth]

Hi,

nearly every team has a lineman position. Nearly all of the teams have only General access with the linos. Has somebody ever thought about, taking away the access for Agility skills for elf linos? What would that do to the game?
I often thought about that, because the Blodge on the linos makes elves a very ungrateful opponent. And it is unfair against nearly all other races (...)

"And that's why, in its great Wisdom, Nuffle created the Tackle skill."

On a more serious note, i wouldn't consider such a change without completly rethinking and rewriting affected rosters, or you'r gonna face a lot of trouble, like :
_ global extinction of Pro and Wood elves
_ Dwarves team unable to compete against "stronger" opponents (beside blockers wouldn't have any good skills to take once they level up)
_ Chaos would lose their omnipotence (quite unfair for a team which start without skills nor positionnals)
...

Basically, it would require too much work, and bring too much trouble, as each roster should be studied individually. Besides, even if you do succeed to rebalance those teams after your change, i'm not sure it would be that great, as it would reduce the diversity of the game.

So my advice is : forget about it, and get more Tackle and Mighty Blow : elves don't like those skills.

[gandresch]

Hi,

i don't want to say "take that rule, it's pretty cool". I want to know, if the teams are still competitive without the access and when they have to "behave" like a "normal team". The reason i ask is, that i think they can manage it.
Not all rosters are problematic, but just the few, that i mentioned. And as I said, i wouldn't change the Chaos roster.

Greets,
gan

[Kort]

The Wood Elf and Dwarf rosters were slightly overpowered in LRB5 but both have been nerfed in the CRP. it is too early to know if the change has been successful or not, and definitely too early to propose such a radical change.

Now what skill could possibly take a Dwarf Blocker without S access ? He already has the two most useful general skills, Block and Tackle. I see two valid choices, namely Dauntless and Dirty Player. The rest is just crap for a slow clumsy player. A Dwarf team would be crushed by the Humans as soon as their Linemen gain Block/Wrestle and their Blitzers have Guard.
The Dwarf already have a low stats and rely on skills to be able to compete. I am far from a Dwarf lover but that would be a disaster for the team.

Same problems for the Lineelf: After Block/Wrestle and Fend, what is left against a bashing side ? Plus the Elf positional players are super expensive, usually 90k+.

[gandresch]

Hi,

sure the positionals are expensive, but what about e.g. Norse? Positionals cost 90k or more. The linos can only take Generals.
I don't see a real problem for elves' linos, who can only take General skills. There a more than 2 useful skills in this category. The thing is, that most other races do not have this advantage, so why should elves have it? The expensive linos come out of the ag4 advantage, which is really great.

I played dwarves before and i see, that the General category isn't most useful one for dwarves. But the same thing here: Why do the linos have two categories, while the other linos only have one.
Perhaps taking away the Generals might be an option.

Greets,
gan

[Patchwork]

But the same thing here: Why do the linos have two categories, while the other linos only have one.

I don't really see the problem myself. You ask the above and I answer "with the number of different rosters, why do the linemen on all of them have to have the same skill access?" and "if it doesn't make those teams overpowered, what's the problem?".

Also the rest of the roster has to be taken into account when judging any player on it, even the linemen because changing the linemen will change the whole rosters balance. Most of the elven teams don't have any normal strength access or a big guy, which helps balance out all that agility access. Dwarves lack strength, apart from on the deathroller, and as boring at it is, they need the strength access on linemen at higher team values to be able to compete with other bashing teams with more strength, like orcs, who have more strength then the dwarves and would also be able to field more players with normal strength access then the dwarves if you take the strength access away from their linemen.

[gandresch]

Hi,

the topic should be more in the direction "would there be a possibility, that elves' and dwarves' linos do not have 2 categories to access"?

I know, that the things i suggested, are not the best ones. But a change in the teams always comes along with a change. For me it makes no difference, if you take away Agility or Strength access, or take General access instead. For dwarves this wouldn't make a big difference in the beginning, while elves with only Agility would more rely on the strength of their positionals.

I want no discussion about the balance of BB teams. I just want to know, if somebody else has a good idea or even tried one.

Greets,
gan

[Rhyoth]

Hi,

the topic should be more in the direction "would there be a possibility, that elves' and dwarves' linos do not have 2 categories to access"?

I don't see any good reason for that :

_ Elves are meant to be more agile than average/human, so they are granted A skills (but, as a counterpart, not a single elf can pick S skills)
_ Dwarves are meant to be tougher and stronger than average/human, so they are granted S skills (but, as a counterpart, not a single Dwarf can pick A skills)

However, i don't see any valuable reason to deny them General skills : i mean, this is only done for
_ Stunties (i can understand they are limited their tiny body)
or
_ ST 5+ player (which have cognitive and coordination issues)

Dwarves and Elves are not even close to those extreme type of players, thus should not be treated like them.

To conclude, if you think some dwarvish/elven team should be nerfed (i could understand why you would aim at woodies or dwarves), i don't think you should be so drastic.

[Patchwork]

I want no discussion about the balance of BB teams. I just want to know, if somebody else has a good idea or even tried one.

Sorry Gan but there has to be some talk of balance. At the very least for the rosters being changed.

For me it makes no difference, if you take away Agility or Strength access, or take General access instead.

For dwarves taking strength access away from dwarven linemen will make the team very poor at higher team values. Using the Orcs as an example again, they'd have more high str, more guard and be faster and more agile... with the only advantage the dwarves having, is that they are marginaly tougher then the orcs.

Taking general access away wouldn't effect them much but why take it away? At least if they have general access you might get some coach to sometimes pick a different skill (one with kick maybe) instead of guard, mighty blow and stand firm. You'd only be taking away the slim chance the dwarves have of maybe doing something different with a lineman, which seems a bit pointless.

For Elves it's harder to judge, take away agility and you get a load of block or wrestle with fend and take away general and you get a load of dodge with sidestep. It'd only have an effect as team values go up and linemen get to second skills or third skills. Doesn't seem like a big problem by then really, amazons can spam blodgers a lot faster then that and at the point where elven linesmen are becoming blodgers, the bashing teams have had pleanty of time to get some tackle, mighty blow or pilling on.

[mattgslater]

First, I think the idea of removing A from elf linos is absolutely horrid. Elf linos are overpriced as is (except Wood Elves), so taking away their A access is either grossly unfair to the player himself, or comes along with a price break that's overwhelmingly powerful for the Woodies. In my book, you'd be better off knocking off two Catchers from Pro, High and Wood Elves, and two Blitzers from Dark Elves. That would force teams to use that A access.

You could do this:
1) Take A access off any elf player called a Lineman or Thrower
2) Reduce the cost of all such players by 10k
3) Make Wood Elf Catchers a 0-2 position
4) Add 10k to TRR cost

Me, I think that's major surgery, as opposed to just cutting off a couple positionals. And IMO, the only elf team that needs trimming is Wood Elves. High Elves are occasionally surreal in the hands of the right coach, but they're far from unbeatable. Dark Elves are good at the game they play, but it's a very dangerous game. Pro Elves have the limitations of both High and Wood Elves, with the advantages of only the High Elves, plus a big head start on positional combo skills that would be a lot better if the team could maintain some good line-support....

[Digger Goreman]

Long-come-short... ditch the elves (and dwarves while you're at it).... Saves a lot of argument and cleans up JJ's two worst mistakes....

Timmy-Power-Gamer, "Oh, look, I rolled a two and succeeded!"

Real BB Coach, " ... "

[mattgslater]

Dig, that cuts both ways. You know that cold, wrenching feeling you get in your gut every time a Zombie falls down? Yeah, me neither. I've run Orcs and High Elves both for several years, and I assure you, Orcs are easier. Besides, taking A access off doesn't solve that problem.

That 6/3/4/8 GA guy is like a Beastman in a lot of ways: the BM pays 10k for a ton of access and a 1/turn toolbox skill. They lack positional variety, but what positional support they do have is simply the best bargain positional in the game. By comparison, the HE pays 20k for good access and a major asset. They have a lot of good support in many forms, but the only killer positional bargain is the Thrower.

The real problem is Wood Elves. Fix Wardancers, make Catchers 0-2, make WE linos MA6/60k like Pro Elves....

[Asperon Thorn]

The real problem is Wood Elves. Fix Wardancers, make Catchers 0-2, make WE linos MA6/60k like Pro Elves....

Nah. . just make the catchers ma 8 with sprint and surefeet. The problem with WE catchers is they have so much movement after they break past the line in which they don't have to roll dice. . .increase the amount of times they have to roll the die.

Asperon Thorn