Underworld strategy advice - please help

[Smeborg]

I am inclining towards Big Hand as the second skill on Gobbos (after 2-Heads). It seems that 2-Headed Gobbos attempt to pick the ball up in multiple tackle zones all the time - it is their stock in trade. Maybe this happens as often as 3 times a game on average, often more. While I have been lucky so far with my rolls requiring 4+ and 5+, how much better to be able to do it on a 3+! So I suspect that Big Hand will nick it for me ahead of Horns.

I am also inclining to Block as the doubles skill of choice for Gobbos. It is consistent with 2-Heads/Big Hand for keeping the Gobbo standing.

Many times I have wished for S-Step on the Gobbos, but I guess that will have to wait. Once I have 4 Gobbos with 2-Heads on the roster (if ever!), I will consider a secondary build for a "defensive" or "line" Gobbo (S-Step followed I guess by one of F-App, D-Pres or D-Tackle). The only question is whether I should go for the Linegobbo build sooner than that.

I agree with the advice that Gobbos are unlikely to get beyond 2 skills, so there's little point planning for 3!

[Smeborg]

OK, here is my team after 12 games (W9, D2, L1). Loss was against Dark Elves, draws against High Elves and Dwarfs. Slayer teams with Tackle and Agility teams are consistently the most difficult opponents. TDs are 30-10, CAS are 30-37. I am trying to play against every team in our open league (I'm about half way through), and feel I have had something of an easy ride so far.

Troll: Claw, Guard (18)
S-Vermin: Guard (12)
S-Vermin: Guard (11)
Thrower: +1MA, Block, X-Arms (43)
Thrower: Leader (9)
Linerat: +1MA, Wrestle, Horns (43)
Linerat: Kick, Wrestle, (-1MA, MNG) (16)
Gobbo: 2-Heads (8)
Gobbo: - (5)
Gobbo: - (2)
4 Rookie Gobbos
3 TRR
Apoth
7 FF

The Gobbos just die (I was warned about this on this thread). I have lost 3 skilled Gobbos with 39 SPPs between them (only one of them got to 2 skills - he lasted half a game). The Troll skills up by himself (CASd 3 Chaos Warriors in the last game). The only game I lost was when the Troll was missing. The multi-skilled Skaven players reflect where MVPs have fallen (4 on a Linerat, 2 on the other Linerat, 3 on a Thrower). The MA8 players are natural SPP magnets as it is. It's hard to skill up the S-Vermin (because their Guard is always needed somewhere), but they are inching their way to their second skill (M-Blow), after which I hope they will continue skilling up by themselves.

I feel it is only a matter of time before the Skaven players start to die, taking their skills with them. You cannot hide players on this team - they are all exposed to attack, and hanging back is not a good option. Apoth is normally gone by about turn 3, and is quite often used on the Troll. So I suspect that over time the roster will become even more uneven in its development. But SPP generation is high, and is coping with skill losses.

I feel it is appropriate to keep TV lean on this team, as there are low cost inducements which can damage them quite a bit (Bribe, Saw, Wizard). The team is quite sexy to play, being at the extreme end of the "weed" spectrum (live fast, die young), so I enjoy playing them a lot. Weeds with attitude.

All the best.

[plasmoid]

Hi Smeborg,
congrats on your massive success with underworld.
Would you be interested in writing a playbook for them?

Cheers
Martin

[Ullis]

How do you find the Kick skill? Is it important to the team? I haven't gotten it myself as I've wanted to take other skills for the rats, but Kick could be worth it.

[Smeborg]

plasmoid - thanks for the offer, but I think it's too early for a playbook - I have to complete at least one full season with a new team, preferably two, before I feel I have the right to pontificate about them. We may have a scheduled league (= tournament) next year, which would be a really good test for them. I may also give them a trot in a weekend tournament or two, which would provide excellent feedback for a playbook.

Ullis- Kick is huge for this team. They are the kind of team that need to put immediate pressure on the ball, in order to get a turnover TD. Holding back or standing off is a poor strategy as it will just see players flying into the dugout, for no return. The team is faster than it looks on paper because of the superior mobility of 2-Heads Gobbos, who can reach spilled balls that other teams cannot (even a rookie Gobbo can do this in case of need, there is usually one to hand). I kick both long and short, depending on the match situation. Short kicks are often very effective.

This team seems very good at getting turnover TDs early in a match, such that you have your opponent chasing the game. They weaken as the game goes on (as the dugout fills up), but they still retain excellent mobility as the reserve Gobbos come onto the pitch, making it difficult for opponents to score quickly. When things go well, which is quite often, they kick and go 1-0 up, or receive and go 2-0 up (against decent coaches), leading to final scores of 2-1, 3-1 or similar.

Access to all skills (Mutations, Passing, Agility, Strength, General) on normal rolls is a huge plus, meaning you can plan and execute a very effective development strategy reliably (only CAS get in the way, you don't worry about getting doubles or stat increases). It also means that your TV stays low in relation to skills gained (same goes for Chaos Pact, but Underworld have starting skills as well). Given that the "base" TV is almost obscenely low (107 for a 14 player roster with 3 RR and an Apoth), this team has an obvious advantage in the "lean and mean" stakes.

This team feels naked, but plays well. I think the key is to play with a certain reckless disregard for the safety of your players. This is something I have always done (relative to other coaches), and is a main reason why the team seems to suit my playing style.

All the best.

[Dzerards]

Great discussion. Keep us posted on how the team develops.

Do you regret not going down the can-opener route from the off on one of the SV? Or has guard been working out for you?

Also, you say big hand is looking like your favourite second skill on the gobbos. Is this because you have been successfully cage-breaking a lot or is it that you have been getting to the ball handler before the cage can form?

GP

[Smeborg]

Gerard - I don't regret for a moment not going down the can-opener route straight away with the S-Vermin. Firstly, I followed the good advice that was given on this thread in response to my questions. Secondly, the pioneer Underworld team in our league (last season) went down the can-opener route straight away. It looked good in the short term (lots of CAS), but in the medium term the team just got squished. Thirdly, for me a basic tenet of BB is: "First, knock down your Dwarf". You need to knock opponents over (this is what will win you games) before worrying about whether you are doing damage to them.

Now that the team has 3 Guard (first skill on S-Vermin, second on the W-Troll), it has quite a lot of "attitude", and can look after itself in the scrum, at least for the first half of the game. Both S-Vermin are within 5 SPPs of their second skill - partly this is just luck, in that they have not garnered any MVPs yet. Provided they survive (they are of course prime targets), I am confident they will skill up again soon, which will see them on their way to can-opener status.

Although I did indeed say that I was inclining towards Big Hand as the second Gobbo skill, I actually gave Horns to the only Gobbo to reach 2 skills. He did not use it once, since he died on turn 9 of the next game. However, he did think about using his Horns 3 or 4 times - it's just that my opponent was not playing very accurately, so his Horns were not required (their were better options for the blitz). I remain open minded on the second skill. I am trying to base my choice on analysis of what skill the team needs when the chips are really down (i.e. when the team is struggling, for example against their most difficult types of opponent). So I will have some more games to analyse before I have to take the decision again. I perceive that both Horns and Big Hands are potential game winners, notwithstanding that they will both be used rarely.

My reason for inclining towards Big Hand was because it is very common for Gobbos to try to pick up a loose ball in tackle zones (a task especially suited to a Gobbo with 2-Heads). There is no particular pattern to the reason for the spilled ball, it might be because the opposing team has failed a pick-up, hand-off or pass, it might be because I have just sacked the ball carrier, or it might be my own team that has coughed it up. But the nature of the team is such that if the ball is loose, they must get hold of it and score quickly, otherwise the opponent is liable to seize the initiative and start squishing the Underworld in the traditional manner.

All the best, and glad to hear you are enjoying this thread. It's all new and exciting to me too.

[cyagen]

Big Hand, Horns and Extra-arms are all very good 2nd skills choices for Gobos.

It is more a question of opportunity and luck that makes a choice better than another. BG will not help if you can't sack the ball carrier.

I still think that MB is the best first skill for Blitzers, it helps the developement because once they get Guard, they become a little less active.

I am a fan of the Can openers, but I see the point of 3 Guard players. Depends on the style you want to play, mine is high risk high reward with Underworld and can openers are better at that.

But your record speaks for the validity of the guard route.

[Smeborg]

cyagen - I think Guard has protected the team (and its skills) quite a bit. It's hard to quantify, but it's obvious that I dish out more blocks and take fewer than I would without it. Even so, the team is at the limit of what it can take CAS-wise without losing a lot of skills (not that I worry about such things).

The example I gave of a coach in our league who went the can-opener route was really interesting. He did spectacularly well early in the league (CAS-wise at least), and then as other teams skilled up, he just got out-gunned game after game, until one of the precious can-openers died, then a second...

By analogy with the AV7 Elven teams, Underworld need Guard badly. You might as well take it early on the ST players - unlike Elves, you don't have good doubles candidates for Guard (possibly the Gobbos, but they do not retain skills - as for the Skaven, I am thinking Dodge is the best doubles skill for them).

[Smeborg]

Here is the team after 14 games (11 wins, 2 draws, 1 loss):

Troll: Claw, Guard (22)
S-Vermin: Guard, M-Blow (16)
S-Vermin: Guard (15)
Thrower: +1MA, Block, X-Arms (49)
Thrower: Leader (9)
Linerat: +1MA, Wrestle, Horns (43)
Linerat: Kick, Wrestle [-1MA] (21)
Gobbo: 2-Heads (10)
2 Gobbos with 5 SPPs
2 Gobbos with 2 SPPs
2 rookie Gobbos
Apoth
9FF

The record looks good, but does not reflect that several of the wins (and both draws) have been very tight, some might say lucky. Some features of the team at this stage that I have noticed are:

- Lack of Tackle is a problem. I plan it as a middle skill on Linerats, and a late skill on Throwers, but it is a long time coming.

- Gobbos simply do not retain skills. This is frustrating, but I guess is not going to change.

- Key players missing a game, or going into the dugout early in a game are a recurrent problem of some magnitude (because their replacements are rookie Gobbos). This suggests my strategy of trying to make all the Skaven into well rounded players capable of "looking after themselves" may be appropriate.

- The team is a bit like Humans, in so far as they try to play an AG game against bash teams, and a bash game against AG teams. They struggle against Elven teams, against whom a 2-1 grind is often the best option (seems strange, but it works - and having plenty of Guard is essential to such a strategy). If I can develop 3 can-openers (in time), then games against bash teams will become an entertaining M.A.D. lottery.

- The specialist "team" skills (Kick, Leader) are exceptionally valuable on this team. I plan to re-inforce this strategy by giving Kick-off Return to the MA8 Thrower as his next normal skill.

All the best.

[plasmoid]

Hi Smeborg,
basically QFT!

- Lack of Tackle is a problem. I plan it as a middle skill on Linerats, and a late skill on Throwers, but it is a long time coming.
Precisely.
Wrestle on the linerats helps with this.
IMO, need for early Tackle trumps the need for 3 (early) can openers. You need an early tackle blitzer.

- Gobbos simply do not retain skills. This is frustrating, but I guess is not going to change.
Perhaps a playing style thing.
I don't often try for big wins - i.e. I don't play aggressively for the full game.
A +1TD win and no dead players beats a +3TD win with lots of busted gobbos!
Survival is a priority.
IMO, 2-heads gobbos survive a lot better than rookie ones. I dodge them away as a high priority move. Certainly if they're next to deadly players.

- Key players missing a game, or going into the dugout early in a game are a recurrent problem of some magnitude
As above - survival is key.
I prefer dodge rather than guard as the doubles roll for skaven.

Cheers
Martin

[Smeborg]

Thanks, Martin. I agree wholeheartedly that Dodge is the best doubles pick on all the Skaven. I have not had any doubles rolls yet, however, I must admit that my +1MA Thrower and +1MA Linerat are match winners by themselves. A main reason that I gave Guard to the S-Vermin as first skill is that I realised I was not going to give Guard to any of the other Skaven players on a double.

Not so sure that I can change my playing style without a lobotomy! That's what I like about BB - it brings out the underlying "character" of every coach. Mine seems to be an inclination to play with a reckless disregard for player safety! But I think that if anyone is inclined towards concern for the safety of their players, then perhaps Underworld is not for them - the team is always naked. To be fair, the Gobbos have had their fair share of bad "luck" on casualty rolls, and the Skaven have had corresponding "good" luck on both Casualty and Apoth rolls (so far at least...). My closest games have been won or drawn by throwing Gobbos into the fray, so I think there may be an obvious relationship between Gobbo turnover and results.

I find the S-Vermin rather quiet players, they like to make the basic blocks on the LoS, or just move to deliver their Guard assist. I thought long and hard about Tackle, but chose M-Blow in the end. Only time will tell whether I chose right!

I must say I like the way this team plays, and find them quick and easy at the table (it's the development side that needs the thinking). The dynamic of going ahead on score, and then defending with more and more rookie Gobbos on the pitch is just fun, and to me is more enjoyable (for both coaches perhaps) than the elven equivalent, where you are usually just short of reserves. I would guess that the team is solid tier 1, with the proviso of course that it is fragile. Having a cheap team with speed, good starting skills, and access to all skills on a normal roll leads to a harmonious and dynamic roster. Still learning, though - always just one game away from having my ideas "corrected" at the table...

The team is undoubtedly "lucky". The sweetest result was a 1-1 draw against Dwarfs, coached by an old and wily foe. It involved the Dwarfs failing a GFI to the end zone (with re-roll) after they got greedy (CAS count was 8-0 to the Dwarfs). 'Nuff said...

[plasmoid]

Heh, I think we agree on a lot about this team.
I absolutely love playing them.

Like I said, in a way they are a lot like wood elfs [*cough*splutter*WHAT!]. With the right rolls, they can do almost anything. And like wood elfs, big wins can be dangerous - as can total disregard for player safety. Just like your greedy dwarf friend, wood elfs and underworld too can be hurt by too much greed. I've seen wood elf teams destroyed by the coach's need to win by 3

So, IMO, winning comes first. No point in preserving your losers. But player survival is also a key element of keeping this team going. Not that I "care" about my players. It's just that 2-headed gobbos are a heck of a lot better than rookie gobbos.

Cheers
Martin

[Smeborg]

Martin - I am evolving a concept of "weedy teams", being those with the following common characteristics:

- 1 Big Guy
- No ST4 players
- 4 (or more) ST2 Catcher types
- Above average speed

The teams that fit into this category are:

- Wood Elves
- Skaven
- Humans
- Slann
- Underworld

Without going too far, I think there is a commonality in the way these teams play.

[mrmojoz]

Starting roster, 1 million.

6 gobolins.
6 rats.
1 trolls.
3 rerolls.
20k left over.
?