Removing A From Elf Linos

[plasmoid]

Well - Wood elf catchers have already become MA8 + sprint, but without sure feet.
And the team still rocks.

[Asperon Thorn]

Well - Wood elf catchers have already become MA8 + sprint, but without sure feet.
And the team still rocks.

Goddamnit, burned on not knowing the new rules. . .again. .when did that happen?

Asperon Thorn

[mattgslater]

Yeah, it doesn't solve the core problem. Take away prime targets, make it so the option routes and gadget plays feel gadgety. MA8 is not quite as good as MA9, but with good screening you still don't have to GFI to score in 2 turns. Ditto MA7, really, but that requires gaming; a little lateral movement and suddenly you're playing Elven Roulette.

[Asperon Thorn]

Well are they still st 2 at least?

[mattgslater]

Yeah, but if you're scoring every other turn and have a Treeman on the line, who cares?

[Asperon Thorn]

My point being is that they are such a squishy team. . I don't understand why they are so much trouble. I think if you are trying to play the ball they may give you trouble, however if you just clear the pitch you don't have to worry about how fast they are.

Asperon Thorn

[mattgslater]

Except that, especially early, they have so much Dodge that most teams have trouble knocking them down. Squishy isn't good, but fast is more good than squishy is bad.

[Alamar]

I'm not even sure why we're debating this subject. Simply put there are players & teams in BloodBowl that are flat out designed to be better than other teams. If you accept that then I'm not sure what there is to discuss. If you don't accept that then you are going to have to live with the fact that there are plenty of teams better than your favorites -- and the fact that the other teams WON'T BE FIXED as long as they perform their desired function.

[Asperon Thorn]

I'm not even sure why we're debating this subject. Simply put there are players & teams in BloodBowl that are flat out designed to be better than other teams. If you accept that then I'm not sure what there is to discuss. If you don't accept that then you are going to have to live with the fact that there are plenty of teams better than your favorites -- and the fact that the other teams WON'T BE FIXED as long as they perform their desired function.

I disagree. There are definately teams that are designed to be worse than others (halflings, gobbos, etc. . ) but for the most part the core teams are suppose to be fairly balanced. Alamar, I am not sure how you became the definitive expert on what is worthy of discussion or not, but you are certainly overstepping your bounds here.

Now, Matt, I think your problem is not so much that WE are overpowered but your strategy in facing them. If you are going to get into a shootout with WE they are going to win every time. It is the one team that the other elves. . especcially the High And Dark, should be slowing down and playing like dwarves. It's not playing to their strengths but it IS playing to your opponents weaknesses.

Back, to the original post, agility is on Linelves because they lack strength access. The strength skill chart is designed to help clear the pitch while at the same time resisting punishment. Agility skills are for moving the ball, with some passive aggressive survival skills. Elves are expensive and squishy so they need these skills to survive however even with these advantages elf team struggle in leagues that last a long time. They don't survive, when strength teams do.

Removing both strength and agility from teams simply removes a lot of character from those teams. . why not just make a league where everyone can only be humans?

Asperon Thorn

[Alamar]

My point being is that they are such a squishy team. . I don't understand why they are so much trouble. I think if you are trying to play the ball they may give you trouble, however if you just clear the pitch you don't have to worry about how fast they are.

Asperon Thorn

IMHO the problem is that an Elf team can get really good really fast. Because the teams score a lot they can also afford to play some SPP games where they can handoff the ball to linemen [without too much fear] for a TD / they can pass almost at will / etc.

So by the time my team has gotten most of its first skills the Elves already have theirs and are closing in on their 2nd skills.

[Alamar]

I'm not even sure why we're debating this subject. Simply put there are players & teams in BloodBowl that are flat out designed to be better than other teams. If you accept that then I'm not sure what there is to discuss. If you don't accept that then you are going to have to live with the fact that there are plenty of teams better than your favorites -- and the fact that the other teams WON'T BE FIXED as long as they perform their desired function.

I disagree. There are definately teams that are designed to be worse than others (halflings, gobbos, etc. . ) but for the most part the core teams are suppose to be fairly balanced. Alamar, I am not sure how you became the definitive expert on what is worthy of discussion or not, but you are certainly overstepping your bounds here.

Actually I think you're overracting -- by a lot. There is a big difference between "I'm not even sure why we're debating this" and "you shouldn't be debating this". If you are not a native English speaker and don't understand the distinction then I regret offending you.

I stand by my assertion though that some teams are by design and intent better than others. Other teams are designed to be close but maybe not quite as flexible ... other teams are designed to be challenging ... others are designed as teams to just "goof off" with.

Note: I will play with some of the power teams but prefer the challenging teams. I also prefer to have a wide variety of teams available [agile, fast, skilled, unskilled, strong, etc.]. Given the constraints put in place I think the guys do a good job keeping things balanced.

EDIT: Unless there is an overriding reason otherwise I agree ... leave each team as much character as possible.

[mattgslater]

I think the way it plays out is that there are about five or seven teams that are better than the other "good" teams: Wood Elves, Dwarfs, Orcs, Skaven, Amazons and maybe Undead and/or Chaos Dwarfs. The other three elf teams are almost that good.

What I think:

* You want some players who are at least average toughness, and some players who are at least average speed, but it's better to be either fast-and-fragile or slow-and-tough than average-and-average.

* The following things are huge: spam Dodge, spam Block with the potential to spam Guard, +6 or better net ST, any amount of AG4, and lots of starting skills.

* It's okay that some teams are better than others, so long as those top 5-7 teams are all competitive with one another, and a good coach can win with anything. Both seem to be true.

[Digger Goreman]

What I think:

* ... it's better to be either fast-and-fragile or slow-and-tough than average-and-average.

Very much so....

* The following things are huge: spam Dodge, spam Block with the potential to spam Guard, +6 or better net ST, any amount of AG4, and lots of starting skills.

Perhaps no truer words were ever spoken.... I would've added "Leap" to the list... by itself and especially in synergy with Ag4....

* It's okay that some teams are better than others, so long as those top 5-7 teams are all competitive with one another, and a good coach can win with anything. Both seem to be true.

Well, Meatloaf, "two outta three ain't bad(?!)".... Can't agree on this one, Matt... as I find it one of the most heinous design miscues in a potentially blockbuster game.... In a laughable moment of "destroya paranoia", it makes one wonder if gw wanted it this way: "Yes, the cheese is strong in this one! He has chosen power over design and is ready for Space Marines.... The Sith-witch is pleased...."

[SillySod]

Digger, please play on FUMBBL and dominate the rankings with your elves. It'd be interesting to watch and it'd give your arguments some weight.

[Digger Goreman]

The burden of dis-proof is on you, should you like....

I'll stick by my 35+ years of gaming, and 20 years of BB, experience and mathematical sensibilities... they've served me well....

And, after all, we are stuck with the 24 teams... design flaws and all....

Timmy(s) rejoice!