All about Dark Elves

[Uldreg]

Hello the rookie is back. Alright I have a Dark Elf team poised on greatness, at least in my own mind. This is a team in the cyanide game, so if coaches around here abstain I understand completely. I played TT in 2nd Ed. and am trying to return to my favorite game. It is a league team that is being develpoed for a longish haul. Nevertheless, here is my roster:
The Funkadelic's
"Maggot Brain" Blitzer: Dodge, Tackle, [Sidestep]
"Atomic Dog" Blitzer: +1 STR, Dodge [Leap]
"Starchild" Blitzer: Dodge, Sidestep [Diving tackle or ?Dauntless?]
"Dr. Funkenstein" Blitzer: Tackle, [Dodge]
"Mothership Connection" Lineman: -1 MV, Dirty Player, +1 STR [Block]
"Rumpofsteelskin" Lineman: Wrestle, Guard [Dodge]
"Sir Nose D'voidoffunk" Lineman: Block, Dodge [Fend]
"Funky Dollar Bill" Lineman: Kick, Wrestle [Dodge]
"Uncle Jam" Lineman: Wrestle, Sidestep, [Dodge]
"Bootsy Collins" Runner: [Nerves of Steel]
"Flash Light" Runner: Block, +1 STR, Dodge, [Pass]
"Aretha Franklin" Witch Elf: Wrestle, Tackle, Sidestep [Diving Tacklel]
"Ella Fitzgerald" Witch Elf: Block, Sidestep [Strip Ball]
TV= 2000

Any suggestions? I took the STR on the DP because it felt right. He is the main "fluff' guy on my team for this league, guaranteed nose tackle for life. Also my current division is pretty agile for the most part, although I plan on being versatile to face all types of oposition. Thanks for the help.

[Asperon Thorn]

I am assuming that this is [next skill]

You never turn down STR, I have not come across a scenario in which turning down STR is a good idea. There are some cases in which you could argue it. . but I always think STR is the best choice.

Don't get diving tackle on blitzers or witch elves. You don't want them on the ground. You want to get diving tackle on line elves that you have groomed for defense. They should also have passblock, and possibly catch, shadowing, dodge, and tackle.

I also don't think I would take leap on a str 4 DE blitzer. . .but I can see the draw. I'd probably take tackle.

On the Witches, strip ball is a good choice. Dauntless is also a good choice for them.

"Funky Dollar Bill" Lineman: Kick, Wrestle [Dodge]
"Uncle Jam" Lineman: Wrestle, Sidestep, [Dodge]

I'd go with block on this two guys next. You are lacking a solid core of blodgers for your LOS.

Asperon Thorn

[renoh]

"Funky Dollar Bill" Lineman: Kick, Wrestle [Dodge]
"Uncle Jam" Lineman: Wrestle, Sidestep, [Dodge]

I'd go with block on this two guys next. You are lacking a solid core of blodgers for your LOS.

Asperon Thorn

I disagree.
By experience with woodies, I would say that Block is slightly worse than Wrestle for elves on the LOS (multiples blocks by bouncing come to mind).
Beside, having block + wrestle is really less effective than wrestle/dodge or block/dodge for keeping your players alive.
In this case, Dodge is the best way to lengthen the lifespan of your LOS players.

[voyagers_uk]

I have to agree with Renoh... although that being said I would have taken Block rather than Wrestle in the first place... Dark Elves need to be able to strike back from anywhere...

[Rhyoth]

1) Since your + ST runner can be much more useful than a dedicated thrower, i would give him Nerves of Steal (much more versatile) instead of Pass (your other runner can still have Pass if you want)

2) With so many good skills to pick for Blitzers and Witches, Strip Ball seems very limited : i would skip it, or give it to a lino

3) If your league is very agile, maybe you should consider a Pass Blocker ?

4) Personnally, i tend to give my Kicker some "toolbox" skills ASAP : he is the perfect candidate for Pass Block or Strip Ball
(of course, it means not giving him a protective skill : don't expose him too much)

5) Diving Tackle can make a lot of damage in an agile league. Besides, i would not worry too much about getting prone because of it : when you use DT, your opponent suffers a trunover at least half of the time, and even if he get past it, he may not be able to gather enough players for a proper gangfoul.
Still, i prefer to give it to my Blitzers : i don't like to put my Witches in TZ more than necessary, and even a foul with 0-1 assist has good odds of success against AV 7...

6) I think DE are better with both Block and Wrestle, and since most of your positionnals have/will have Block, then I guess 3/5 linelf with Wrestle is fine...

[Asperon Thorn]

"Funky Dollar Bill" Lineman: Kick, Wrestle [Dodge]
"Uncle Jam" Lineman: Wrestle, Sidestep, [Dodge]

I'd go with block on this two guys next. You are lacking a solid core of blodgers for your LOS.

Asperon Thorn

I disagree.
By experience with woodies, I would say that Block is slightly worse than Wrestle for elves on the LOS (multiples blocks by bouncing come to mind).
Beside, having block + wrestle is really less effective than wrestle/dodge or block/dodge for keeping your players alive.
In this case, Dodge is the best way to lengthen the lifespan of your LOS players.

You can't use woodie linelves as a model for your Dark Linelves. Less movement more armor. DE are slower so there is going to be more hitting, in general, than vs a WE team. DE need to dish out early and often.

Asperon Thorn

[mattgslater]

I can see what Asperon's saying about Block being better than Wrestle as a spam skill for DE Linos. If I ran DEs again (and I might), I'd probably try to build at least one Wrestle lino, just because I'd plan to take only one Wrestle Witch, and I want two Wrestle guys on the pitch at/near peak development, even if I'm putting other skills on the line. It's a good #2 Kicker skill, especially if you're the Inverted Zig type (6/3/4/8 Kick, Wrestle = best free midfielder money can't buy). Still, for me, Dodge is the spam skill, especially on DEs, who start with a bunch of Block anyway and need Dodgers to take the Tackle pressure off Witch Elves (or SS'ers to tie down Tackle players).

I do see the downside of putting Diving Tackle on an expensive player, and in the case of Blitzers I agree that there are just too many good skill picks to take one with a downside (unless it's Piling On on second doubles). But 2x Diving Tackle is really, really powerful, especially after you've started spamming SS. To me, the idea of maintaining a Witch Elf as a free safety is just so strong that Diving Tackle is extremely tempting as a #3 or #4 improvement (after Block and Side Step, before or after Tackle, depending on what I'd be DT'ing against and what else I have). The other Witch Elf is a blitzer-type, going for Wrestle, Leap and Side Step. Leap/Frenzy is disturbingly good; I try to get that combo on every elf team, as it really changes the way opponents defend. Also, DT isn't nearly as much of a foul hazard as Wrestle. When DT works, it generally forces a turnover, and the elf just Jumps Up early in the turn for a free Move action, or just after that to do something easy (which gets up-prioritized because of the prone player). By contrast, Wrestle usually leaves your guy prone for some or all of the opponent's turn.

Also, you'll be running how many linemen? Sixish, right? So, you've got a Kicker. He's got to get Block, Dodge or Wrestle at 16 SPP. Then at 31, if he took Wrestle, you might go the safety route with him and take Tackle or Diving Tackle, with a mind for either the other one, or Pass Block, or Side Step, or Jump Up, at 51. That's a long time out. Kickers go up okay, because they start in the backfield, but 31 SPP takes many games or a concentration of MVPs, or a serious effort. Your other five are your DL rotation, so they're never getting Diving Tackle. You could build a 7th lino as a safety, but if you run and skill 7 linos, you will probably get an 11 or 12, which would put him on a different track. Diving Tackle works best in pairs. So if you really want to be serious about DT, you need to put one on a Witch, Blitzer, Runner or Assassin.

If you even run an Assassin at all (big if), you have other plans for him besides DT as a #1 skill. They don't advance fast and have poor skill memory, so 2-skill Assassins are very rare. Runners have their own template/profile to think about, and have zero room for DT. Or am I wrong? Is a #2 Runner-as-Safety a good plan? Dodge, SS, DT, Acc? Even so, that would take awhile, and Runners have some turnover problems.

[renoh]

You can't use woodie linelves as a model for your Dark Linelves. Less movement more armor. DE are slower so there is going to be more hitting, in general, than vs a WE team. DE need to dish out early and often.

Asperon Thorn

My point was: Dodge is better than Block on a player who has already Wrestle on the LOS.
However I understand your point of view. I limit myself to 4 Wrestle on my DE team: 1 on a witch elf (along with strip ball) for ball stealing and 3 for LOS linelves.

[Uldreg]

Hello the rookie returns! I have finished my season at a respectable 7-1-3 and am starting another 11 game season. Competition is much stronger this season. Opposition includes 2 dwarf, 2 orc, 3 chaos, 3 wood elf, 1 human. I have updated my new skill selections and injuries as well. I tried to take the comments into account from my previous post and have updated the prefered skills for level up in brackets. Any suggestions or advice for playing slower than snot Dark Elves would help immensly.
The Funkadelic's:
"Marvin Gaye" Blitzer: [Dodge]
"Atomic Dog" Blitzer: +1 STR, Dodge [Sidestep]
"Starchild" Blitzer: Dodge, Sidestep, -1 MV [Diving tackle, although the slow movement is worring me so i am considering Jump Up]
"Dr. Funkenstein" Blitzer: Tackle, +1 AG [Dodge, but i want to go Leap]
"Mothership Connection" Lineman: -1 MV, Dirty Player, +1 STR [Block]
"Rumpofsteelskin" Lineman: Wrestle, Guard, -1 MV [Dodge]
"Uncle Jam" Lineman: Wrestle, Sidestep, Dodge, [Tackle or Jump Up]
"Bootsy Collins" Runner: Nerves of Steel [Dodge]
"Flash Light" Runner: Block, +1 STR, Dodge, [NoS]
"Aretha Franklin" Witch Elf: Wrestle, Tackle, Sidestep [Strip Ball]
"Ella Fitzgerald" Witch Elf: Block, Sidestep [Leap]
"Maceo Parker" Assassin [Block]
TV= 1980

Any suggestions? I have 4 RR, 1 cheerleader, apoth, and 8 FF and 50k in gold. Replacing lineelves is a priority right now. Normally i wouldn't take an assasin but he has been very useful as a distraction, keeping people away from my +STR players. To be honest, i am really having a hard time getting skills on the rookies. I find that new guys are becoming meat shields for the pros, even though I desperately need skills on them. Especially the aforementioned assassin. Thanks for the help.

[Asperon Thorn]

A lot of people may disagree with me, but I am not a fan of putting leap on witchelves.

I use them for zone control on the outside of cages, I don't like putting them in the middle of them unless they have fought their way there. They are the perfect players for peeling away the layers of an onion.

I'd throw another strip ball on her so that both of your witches have it. With 3 chaos teams and 3 wood elf teams there's a lot of teams without sure hands as default. (most woodies never pick up that skill.)

But with three woodies and the hoomies I'd also consider getting passblock. Although that won't help a lot with the dwarves, chaos, and orcs.

Which teams gave you the most trouble last season and what teams are the better coaches playing?

Asperon Thorn

[Uldreg]

I was thinking leap on the witch to get me first turn surfing opportunities, especially since I have enough sidestep to protect myself. Not too worried about leaping into a cage. I was thinking about getting it on the ag blitzer for cage cracking. The best player in the legue is in this div with his lower tv dwarf team. Other dwarf team was relegated from division one last season both coaches are pretty good. Chaos wise they all have the same mino: juggs (1 has block), claw, guard. The chaos coaches are a little worse than me I think, but chaos with a few skills is a very easy team for noobs since all their players are so similar and versatile. The Orc players: one is as good as me, the other I beat 4-0 last season. 2 of my losses came at the hands of a woodie team with a one turner and the other to some lucky humans both 3-2 losses. The other woodie team I beat, but the new woodie team has a great coach and an edge on tv over me.

[Asperon Thorn]

Well, unfortunately, dwarves are my kryptonite. . . maybe spamming wrestle would help deal with them. . but I don't know. I have no anecdotal evidence. My wins vs dwarves come from placing a good kick and getting into a cage before it can form. But it always requires an uncomfortable number of die rolls to really get that going. So it has more to do with. . "sometimes I get lucky against dwarves and that allows me to win."

Other than that, you can try to drive them to a sideline and then start pushing them over the side. . via Plains American Indians driving buffalo over a cliff. This has been my second most successful tactic and the only thing it has really accomplished for me is to prevent a dwarf team from scoring. . It hasn't served the ball back to me a whole lot. It is best use to prevent those games where you score quick and they use the next 6 turns to drive the ball. Then they receive and spend 8 turns driving up the field. . you can push them to a sideline and bring them to a halt.. . preventing one of those scores. Games ussually end up 1-1 although I have sometimes pulled off a 1-0 win with this strategy.

So. . you may want to build to deal with those woodie teams. . .at which case I'd spam a couple of strip balls. (I have a theory on these type of skills. . . redundancy. One can be avoided or taken out . .with two you can almost always get one in position to do some good.) Strip ball is also good against the human catchers . .but you didn't say whether or not the human player ran a running game or a passing game (I ussually go with a running game against elves . .when playing as humans.)

Asperon Thorn

[TuernRedvenom]

Well, unfortunately, dwarves are my kryptonite. . . maybe spamming wrestle would help deal with them. . but I don't know.

While wrestle does help, spamming Side Step works best in my experience. I try to work towards 8 side steppers before you hit 200 TV. Side step works incredibly well vs every team, but against dwarves it is superb.

Never been a big fan of strip ball on witches. Strip ball is a surgical skill, you'll often be throwing half die blocks to make it work. You don't want frenzy in those situations!

Never been a big fan of spamming dodge across the roster either. Most teams have at least a few tacklers (and dwarves have tons) so not all linemen should take dodge IMO, give a few skills to man mark like Wrestle and Fend. All positionals do get dodge.

It's good to have some wrestle, 2 or 3, I usually take it on linemen although a witch could make use of it as well.

Diving tackle is a superb skill for DE IMO! You are counting on limiting your opponents options to outmanouvre them: no skill besides SS helps more with this then DT. Absolutely a must have on at least 2 players that also have Blodge and SS.

[mattgslater]

With any elf team, you want to get 3x SS as soon as possible, to man the nose and both wings. You'll probably also want a fourth guy to play backup, or so you still have SS on the line in the face of Grab. That way, you can run an inverted ziggurat and nobody except for the wings and line need man a strong position. This means you can run one more position player or specialist-track player, like a +AG or +ST lino or an Assassin. You also don't need any Guard to make this work, so you can put your Guards in free midfield spots, where there's less temptation to blitz them, without exposing any of your AV7.

[Uldreg]

Wow thanks for the insight guys. I do play this team a little fluffy. "The Mothership Connection" is my de facto nose tackle, the guy with Dirty Player and +1 STR. It might not always make sense, and usually doesn't but he is my middle defensive lineelf on every setup if available. He is a long way from block with only 19 SPP and move 5. Plus he usually gets hit by big meanies and goes down. It is probably hanidcapping my play somewaht but he has survived so far. I have tried to implement the fabled Inverted Zig with some success. I usually place the Sidestep Wrodger in the --1----. The Mothership Connection in the ---2---. and either the rookie blizter, assassin, or Wrestle-Guard guy in the ----3--. I recenlty had to cut a couple lineelves who i had hoped to groom for the Right End position. Then i try to follow the Inverted zig principles and have usually had success. Since i am running an inverted zig, any tips on placement of my "protected 3 to 4 players"? If i am not facing frenzy i will often run a half zig.
The Human team in my league is an incredibly lucky and Pass happy. Two of his TD's came on long bombs by a +1 AG, accurate, block thrower to catchers in bracketed man coverage. Thing is, i was caught out of position on D twice with my tacklers trying for Surfs with no pressure on QB. Poor play by me, and I really think that a traditional 3-4-4 columns will dominate vs this coach. My first game is vs an orc team i beat 4-0 last season. We have similar TV, although my wrestle, guard linelf and my blitzer (-1 MV, dodge, SS) are both MNG, so i have one loner. AFter that the first of the Dwarf teams (13 dwarfs plus DR). This dwarf has a tooled out runner with KO return, 1 AG, block, pass. I am really considering an Asymetrical setup on D for the dwarves to try and force him along the sideline... I am really trying to get a DT or two quickly. My matches this season alternate between bashy and AG until the last couple games when the chaos meatgrinder hits.

Thanks for all the help and tips guys.