Human linesman roles?

[Duce]

Ok, i've read the human thread before which I think elshy started, but I was curious what other ways people build their linesmen.

I'm aware of the fouler using sneaky git and dirty player.

Also know the kick on one guy,

the typical block, or wrestle sometimes fend ones.

But what do people think of a linesman with stripball, wrestle, tackle? if they got +1MA it would be even better, basically being a blitzer type who sacks the ball carriers almost 100% of the time freeing up blitzers to be built the usual mighty blow, guard combo route.

I'd pondered making this linesman type as they could dive in and take down ball carriers mostly even if it was 2 dice against.

Another option was building a linesman tobe a dedicated big guy hitter.

On doubles taking mightyblow, dauntless, piling on, its still a linesman at the end of the day, and could work very well with the fouling linesman to remove big guys from the pitch.

[nazgob]

i like the idea of the dedicated big guy hitter - think that thats a really interesting idea.

personally I've been trying to build towards having 3 fenders on the LOS (1st lineman skill always goes on kick). I use linemen as blockers, just tying up players and trying to generally get in the way. fend lets me do that, but also lets me move about mroe freely on my turn. even if i get knocked down theres a reasonable chance that i wont be in any tzs, so ill be able to reposition.

[Kort]

The big problem with linemen is to make them survive long enough to rack up SPPs.

I quite like the Sacking lineman. He still has to reach 31 SPPs, which is not so easy with Wrestle, no other defensive skills and only average armor and agility. I would definitely try this build if one of my Wrestle linemen gets lucky, and my opponents do not have too much Sure Hands.

I am not sure I would give Sneaky Git to a lineman except perhaps if he happens to have Dirty Player and no Block/Wrestle. The probability of him surviving until 16 SPPs is somewhat low though. And having a 100k player without Block/Wrestle and likely to be sent off after a foul does not sound so great.

The Big Guy hitter build seems unrealistic to me, the two first double rolls would be better spent on Guard and Dodge anyway.

[Digger Goreman]

The advice looks a-ok, so far.... Though, for "big guy hitters", it's "as easy" as getting block and dauntless.... Worked like a charm on my zombies... and your linemen are 50% more mobile....

[Patchwork]

I'm aware of the fouler using sneaky git and dirty player.

I prefer building a catcher to do that instead of a lineman. Faster and more mobile so he can get around to where you really want to foul.

For linemen, block or wrestle with fend is always nice, as is Diggers sujestion of Block and Dauntless. One with Wrestle, tackle and strip ball would definitly be very usefull if you don't mind the time it will take to develope the player to those skills.

[Asperon Thorn]

The problem I have with human linemen is that unless they get some sort of stat increase I don't keep them around past 2 skills. (Although like I've said before that has more to do with me still playing in TR based systems.)

I don't like linemen bloating my roster's value. So I sack em shortly after their second skill so that I can keep the value of my team on positionals.

In that regard, I ussually don't plan for a third skil.

Asperon Thorn

[mattgslater]

Matt's Peak Human Roster: 1x Ogre, 4x Blitzer, 2x Thrower, 3x Catcher, 4x Lineman, 4x TRR, Apothecary.

Lineman skills:
L1: Kicker. Kick, Wrestle, Tackle.
L2-4: Lineman. Wrestle, Fend. Third to second skill gets Tackle.
L(Doubles): Guard, Block. Replaces L2-4.
L(10): Ignore on first skill; after that: +MA on L1, +AV on others.
L(11): +AG, Pro, Block, only hire 2 Catchers and 5 Linemen.
L(12): +ST, Block, (Fend or Tackle), only hire 2 Catchers and 5 Linemen.
My Dirty Player is Catcher #3, who goes DP-SG-Block.

[Smeborg]

Good thread, Duce - it seems Human team development is one of the great imponderables of the game which may never be resolved!

Humans are one of the teams that can easily run out of Linos during a game as they get mashed on the LoS (other such teams are Skaven, Norse). This is compounded by their relative scarcity (perhaps 5 or 6 on the roster?). For this reason, I dislike Lino specialisation, and prefer to develop the Linos as "generalists" along a similar path (for me that's Wrestle, Fend, Tackle). I suggest it might be good not to give them Guard (Dodge, Sidestep are better doubles choices IMO - you have 4-5 players who can take Guard on a normal roll). Another consideration is whether to give Kick to a Thrower instead of to a Lino (to ensure you have enough line fodder).

Any Lino who gets to 3 skill advances is likely to be a valuable "positional" player, too valuable to go on the LoS (better to put a rookie Blitzer there in case of need).

[Alamar]

I know enough coaches that lift one or more Throwers on defense and substitute Linemen that are built as "safeties". So having a couple guys with some combination of Wrestle, Tackle, and Strip Ball sounds good. Note with GFIs a MV6 guy can still cover a lot of ground.

Having a Dauntless / Block guy or two certainly doesn't hurt not just to take down big guys but to even the odds against Orcs / Chaos / Lizardmen that can be annoying with their STR advantages if you start scrumming.

Edit: How long [# of games] are you going to play? If you're doing table top gaming and getting in a game a week it could easily take 6-12 months before you get your Linos built up to the point that all of them have multiple skills.

[Duce]

The reason for this thread was my linesman skilling up and getting a 10 (6,4).

I had planned before that if i got one with a move boost I'd turn them into a ball sacker type, but since it was my first linesman I wanted kick as it was better tactically.

Human linesman in my opinion as always described are the average level everything comes from. This makes them perfect for moulding into what the human coach needs.

Do you need a stripball, wrestle, tackle ball carrier? i'd personally say yes as it frees up blitzers from the role.

it also means that while we have a shortage on linesmen we have a endless suply of positionals that can be created.

examples already listed above include dedicated bigguy hitters who only cost 50k base and with dauntless and block can crack down big guys with a single assist easily. that single assist could be your dirty player, one knocks them down, the other puts them off the field.

even with their ma6 shadowing, tackle might be handy to stop elves,

surehands, block makes a decent runnerfor 90k and is no slower than a thrower, but instead of pass you get block.

And that sjust normal rolls... if we get a double sit opens them to being built around the doubles skill maybe a guard piece with guard, block and if they get another double stand firm, or even sidestep.

maybe turn one into a proper killer, mightyblow, block, tackle, dauntless, and if a second doubles piling on?

Their only difference is 1 MA and missing block.

For those saying that they are har to skill up, rememeber their just like blitzers but 1 slower, so it is possible to score fine with them and use the 4 blitzers to cas the way clear meaning both lots get SSP's

[nazgob]

For those saying that they are har to skill up, rememeber their just like blitzers but 1 slower, so it is possible to score fine with them and use the 4 blitzers to cas the way clear meaning both lots get SSP's

I can only agree.

And I agree in theory about you using that MA7 lineman to his fullest potential. However, for a lineman to be useful he needs at least 2 skills - say block/tackle, wrestle/fend, wrestle/strip ball, block/dauntless - 16 SPP. To be really focused, you want to add a third - wrestle/strip ball/tackle - 31 SPP.

If you take that +MA, you're pushing up those first two essential skills to a total of 31 SPP, and the specialist won't be finished till 51. In a league setting this is going to either take a lot of time or a lot of focus, which could be to the detriment to your team.

surehands, block makes a decent runnerfor 90k and is no slower than a thrower, but instead of pass you get block.

This confuses slightly though.

lineman, 50k, 16 SPP, sure hands, block [90k value]
thrower, 70k, 6 SPP, sure hands, block, pass [90k value]

same cost in terms of team value, but the thrower is more versatile (pass skill), and easier to obtain. 6 spp is obviously easier to reach than 16, particularly as they pick up completions quite easily. now, this will use up on of your two throers, but in terms of tactics, I tend to run two throwers anyway - 1 runner/safety and one passer. my runner/safety would be skilled with block and tackle/fend, while my passer goes the route of accurate, etc.

[mattgslater]

10 on Kicker or Dirty Player? I'd take +MA. 10 on line-guy with 31 SPP? I'd take +AV. 10 on any other lino? I'd ignore it.

[Alamar]

If I got a 10 [6+4] on my very first lineman I would ignore it. IMHO Block, Kick, Fend, Strip Ball, Wrestle, etc. would [probably] be better for your team for a long time than +1 MV.

On the other hand a friend of mine had a +MV [1st roll], Wrestle, Tackle lineman that caused me no end of headaches.

[mattgslater]

I think the optimal numbers and usage of each position are not at all clear with Humans. Less so, in fact, than any other team. For one thing few other teams have nearly as many positionals, and for another those that do usually have obvious choices. For example, Orcs have the Big Nine, leaving two modular utility players, plus backups. Those two guys could be from any of three different positions, but they're pretty much always flankers, safeties or free midfielders all of the time (barring +ST).

By contrast, Humans have 4x Blitzers and 1x Ogre at peak development, for sure. You'll probably want both Throwers, but that's far from ubiquitous, and I've not seen any consensus on whether to use zero, one or two Throwers on defense. Catchers are similar, but there are even more questions there; every coach seems to have a different opinion and philosophy with respect to Catchers. That leaves a lot of different options for how many linemen to take.

And then there's utility. Blitzers and Ogres are good players on the line, but they're poor values for the purpose. Linemen are average all-round. So some coaches like to put up three linemen, while others like three positionals, or more likely a Blitzer or Ogre on the nose and linemen on the ends. Personally, I do both: I tend to build linos as D-linemen (for that purpose I deliberately start 4 or 5 to keep them skilling), but at peak build I have two Blitzers with Guard and Stand Firm, and a Lineman with Guard, and I can put the Blitzers in at the ends against ST3 lines.

[Jorgen_CAB]

I basically build three type of linemen for my human team, the Fender, Blocker and Kicker.

The Fender is Fend,Wrestle and (Tackle or Dauntless).
The Blocker is Guard, Block and (Dauntless or Stand-Firm if possible).
The Kicker is a standard Kick, Wrestle, Tackle guy.

My reasoning with linemen is that they should remain at the support role, trying to make them into Blitzers is not necessary becasue they will become rather expensive and mediocre at the task. I like to have six linemen on my team from start and I usually start my team with 12 players (6 Linemen,1 Ogre, 4 Blitzers, 1 Thrower). After this I buy a second thrower and then up to three catcher for a full 16 player roster, but this is only for long term leagues where I like to build up my team for a total TV of about 200-220.

I find that a lineman with more than two skills is a real value on the team and don't go on the line of skirmish. I usually put three Fenders on the line when defending against teams stronger than mine and against weaker teams I field more blockers and perhaps even the Ogre on the defensive line of skirmish.