Tzeentch team

[Joemanji]

I imagine you asking 'why bother?'. Cool fun team, that's why. Totally different. There are also new Tzeentch Horror plastics btw.

So what's the design concept? Tzeentch magic everything, which wouldn't work in BB without a ton of special rules unfortunately. But they used to split, and even did so in BB, which is awesomely cool.

So lets do that.

Tzeentch Team

0-16 _ Pink Horror _ 70K _ 6337 _ Big Hand, Regen, Split, _ GM (SAP)
special _ Blue Horror _ n/a _ 6237 _ Stunty _ n/a
RRs @ 70K
No Apothecary allowed

Spilt (Extraordinary)
When hurt, this player spilts into two smaller blue versions of himself and carries on playing. If the player is ever KO'd or Injured then move it to the appropriate part of the dugout as normal, but also replace him on the pitch with two Blue Horror players as describe on the team roster. One Blue Horror should go in the square the Pink Horror has just left, and the other will appear in a random square adjacent to it using the Scatter template. If this random square is occupied, keep scattering from the new square until you roll for an empty one. The Blue Horrors will be standing when they appear, and their creation may take a team to more than 11 players on the pitch without penalty. At the end of each drive all Blue Horrors on the pitch or in the dugout will reform into their original Pink Horror, and should be removed from play. The Pink Horror should have been in the dugout and is then treated as any other player would be, and may be set up again if he passed his Regenerate or KO recovery roll. Blue Horrors are always rookies, and do not know any of the skills nor carry any of the injuries or special play card effects of the Pink Horror they replace. Blue Horrors cannot earn SPPs and cannot be awarded the MVP award.


Fun, fun, fun.

Does the team need anything else? Positionals? A big guy (Screamer/Flamer/Daemon Prince/Spawn)?

Joe

[mattgslater]

I think Horrors should be really cool 0-2 or 0-4 positions on a Cult of Tzeentch roster. Split looks fine; it could also be a permanent effect if the player suffers a "dead" result (then give him Decay). The Blue Horrors in that case could be Goblins with AM access and 50k value, in addition to the 0 listed on the roster, but not in excess of 16 players (at the end of the match).

0-16 Cultist (Hobgoblin) 40k
0-* Blue Horror (Goblin) 50k value, can't be hired
0-1 Flamer of Tzeentch 5/3/3/8 Bombardier, No Hands, Secret Weapon M/GAPS 50k
0-4 Pink Horror 7/3/3/8 Big Hand, Split (and maybe Decay, as above) GAMPS/-100k
0-4 Warrior of Tzeentch (CW) 100k
TRR 70k

[Dark Duke]

What about having the Blue horrors as the 0-16 position and anytime a Pink horror dies, you get two Blue horrors at 0k cost for your roster? It would be like Nurgle's Rot, but working when your guy dies.

[Joemanji]

I like the en masse appeal of it. Bombadier is a good mechanism for the Flamer, though they are mega fast and fly, so I don't understand 5338. 8337 Leap is more fitting (and not a balance issue as they can't move and bomb in the same turn).

[mattgslater]

Awesome. 8/3/3/7 Bombardier, Leap, No Hands, Secret Weapon, VLL would be worth what? Bombardier + Secret Weapon = free, right? So 8/3/3/7 Leap, No Hands, VLL is what?

[Greyhound]

Based on a skink I'd say 70k

[Darkson]

Blue Horrors should only appear if the Pink Horror is killed (I suppose you could make it for any SI, or any Cas, depending on how often you want them to appear). Take Regen off Pink Horrors. As long as one of the Blue Horrors survives the game (or isn't Cas'd, or [tbd]), the Pink Horror is healed at the end of the game, and is available for the next. If both Blues are removed (to the level decided on), then the Pink Horror takes the full effect of it's injury (or is killed or...).

Basically, once you mkae blues, your stuck with Blues for the rest of the game - none of this recombining mid-match.

[Joemanji]

Nah, too complicated and not fun. This team is crappy so if you use it you should get to play with lots of madness.

[mattgslater]

It doesn't have to be crappy. The team and Split variant I designed above make for a low-T1 team with a Split skill that meets Darkson's fluff concerns.

[nazgob]

i think that what joe meant was that he wanted a tier 3 team, not a tier 1 team.

i tend to think that its far better for home made teams/concepts to be more at the tier 3 end, as its far too easy to create a ridiculously powerful combination of pre-existing/new skills, unbalancing the previous teams.

the ideas behind this team seem solid, although i am suspicious of the leaping bombardier. this piece has two contradictory skillsets - the leap/VLL/Ma8 and the bombardier/secret weapon. to use one set of abilities, you must completely ignore the others. i realise that this keeps the cost of the model low, but given that you are forced to select between the two options, and that he is only going ot be playing for one drive, i do wonder whether there could be a better solution.

hyponotic gaze over bombardier perhaps? fluffwise this would represent the flamer flying over to you and spitting fire.

[Joemanji]

This Tzeentch team doesn't have to be tier 3. 2 or even 1.5 would be fine.

What I want is Split to be the key aspect of the team. That's what makes them different and worth playing. If you have only 4 players with Split then it becomes a very marginal part of the team, and one you can avoid should you wish. You'll go whole games without it playing a part. I ran a quick game through on PBeM and there was only 1 instance of splitting with a whole team of Pink Horrors in the first half. Giving the Horrors Decay gives coaches a reason not to want to use them. I like the idea of a team full of Daemons too. Too many of these Chaos God teams are just Hobgoblins with a Daemon replacing the CWs. Its a bit dull. I'm not adverse to it, but it doesn't fire the imagination because it doesn't really bring anything new to the table.

I'm not adverse to Blue Horrors having Dodge. They should be annoying little critters. However there is no need for them to be literally the same as Goblins because they can't be thrown, and so don't need Right Stuff. That would be overdescription.

[mattgslater]

I wrote this before Joe's post, but didn't get it out in time. Still, I think it's a good affirmation of what he said in one sentence.

There's no inherent reason to make all new teams suck: they just can't be good. New teams should always have advantages and disadvantages: otherwise, why design them? I'd think it very tempting to try to balance such a team against Chaos or Chaos Pact, convenient because nobody thinks either of those is a top team. Vs. Chaos, they trade the big guy, Horns, AV and universal S access for 4x BH/+MA/all-access.

I think the convention of "tiers" in BB teams is useful, but the placement of the tiers in the jargon is way off. About a third of the teams in BB are better than most (the top half-ish of T1), and about a third are not as good (all of T2 and T3). Home-brew teams should clearly not be as good as the better teams, but whether they're one step below or three steps below is a matter of taste. Falling into the bottom category is what you do when either your concept is inherently sucky (Halflings) or when there's no good way to balance the team (Vampires). With homebrew teams, one must also consider the "spam trap" where a skill that's good on one guy may be unexpectedly awesome on eleven, even if you wouldn't normally pay for it. That's what went wrong with 'Zons. This team doesn't have that, I don't think.

* I said unfair, not insurmountable.

[mattgslater]

Cult of Tzeentch Teams
0-16 Cultist 6/3/3/7 GM/APS 40k
0-4 Blue Horror 7/2/3/7 Dodge, Stunty, Unstable AM/GPS 50k
0-1 Flamer of Tzeentch 8/3/3/7 Bombardier, Float, No Hands, Secret Weapon, Unstable, GM/APS 80k
0-2 Screamer 8/3/3/8 Float, No Hands, Unstable GAM/PS 90k
0-2 Pink Horror 7/3/3/8 Big Hand, Split, Unstable GAMPS/-100k
0-2 Warrior of Tzeentch 6/4/3/9 GSM/AP 110k
TRR 70k

It has three new skills and 11 positions, so it could be toned down. But nobody would start all 11 positionals; in fact, no starting team would ever have fewer than 3 cultists, because you don't want to count the Flamer against your starting 11, and you don't want to start a full complement of Blue Horrors. But there's some fat to trim, is my point.

Float: The player naturally hovers just above the ground. He may Leap as per the Leap skill, once per turn at +1 (in addition to the Leap skill if he has it), and may attempt to obstruct any pass he would be in position to intercept on an unmodified 4+ on one die, even if he may not intercept a pass. If the player deflects a pass, the passing player should roll for the pass as normal, treating "accurate" results as inaccurate instead. The player may not take the mutation Very Long Legs.

Split: If a player with Split is killed, then in his place appear up to two Blue Horrors. Each Blue Horror must be represented with a model. One Blue Horror appears standing in the dead player's place; the player's coach may place the extra Blue Horror into the Reserves bin, or may roll the scatter die to determine where the other one appears (even if there are already eleven men on the pitch). If the scatter die indicates that the Blue Horror would appear in an occupied square, scatter him again until he appears in the clear. If this somehow happens on the Tzeentch team turn, these players do not have an action this turn. Blue Horrors created this way are considered separate players and are not subject to any SPP, improvements or card effects on the slain Pink Horror. At the end of the match, the team may hire any of Blue Horrors created this way for free, subject to the constraints of the team.

Unstable: If an Unstable player would miss the next match, he is killed instead. The team's Apothecary may not be used on an Unstable player.

[Darkson]

though they are mega fast and fly,

Hold on, that's the Discs of Tzeentch, not the Horrors.


And it's Flamers of Tzeentch that should have Leap and Bombadier.


I think the fluffs getting mixed up here (that's not to say you couldn't use all the Daemon types on one team, just not on one player).

[mattgslater]

though they are mega fast and fly,

Hold on, that's the Discs of Tzeentch, not the Horrors.

He was talking about Flamers. They're mega-fast and can fly, too. They just have a very different shape....

That roster I have up there does need tinkering, but I think it would be fun. It may still be a touch too good.
2x TzWar = 220k
1x PHorror = 100k
2x Disc = 180k
1x BHorror = 50k
7x Cultist = 280k
3x TRRs = 210k

Take the Discs to 0-1, give 'em Loner, @ 80k? Fluff says they should cost no more than Flamers anyway.