The art of fouling

[sunnyside]

Quite a few people here say you should foul a lot, at least if you're plaing one of the teams with 40-50K players. I'm wondering if you guys have some advice beyond the obvious. My league doesn't have a whole lot of fouling, and a couple opponents have screwed themselves over trying it on me.

How many players do you have to have before you start fouling? Would you foul early in a drive, or in an offensive drive? Or only if you can seperate one of them from the herd when you're on defense, or when you have a decent number of assists against their best guy? Is it that useful as a threat? (i.e. if you send that elf into my backfield you aren't getting them back)

Is a bribe worth it for non gobbo teams if you have a DP or two as opposed to some bloodweiser babes?

If it's highly team dependent I mostly play Norse, and I'm trying to work out how to keep 'em functional at high TV. I'm hoping DP will help againt PO, though I do play other teams, and I'm hoping it'd be useful period.

[Duke Jan]

I'm hoping DP will help againt PO, though I do play other teams, and I'm hoping it'd be useful period.

Fouling is especially useful againt Piling On. PO players are usually high AV, so if you want your opponent to be imressed you need to show it and put in sufficient assists to get more than 50% armour break.

Playing Norse you could try to get your frenzy players to push the Piling On guy to the waiting spiky shoes. Get your frenzier out of enemy TZs so he can assist in the foul.

[nazgob]

there are two types of foul, and two types of foul skill.

the oppurtunistic
a key opposition player is on the floor, and you have a lineman nearby. walk over and boot him.

this is unreliable and risky, but sneaky git makes it worthwile as it prevents you from getting sent off without and injury roll.

the gang foul
you've used cunning positional play, chain pushes and/or frenzy to surround an opposing player with at least 5 of yours.

with +5 to the armour roll, a armour break is all but a given. sneaky git is worth than useless here, but dirty player is a must.




as for when to foul...i'll have to comment a bit later.

[Joemanji]

Generally foul when you'd be happy to KO (or even stun) the opposing player in exchange for getting your guy sent off. Constant fouling is going to lose you as many games as it wins.

[Overhamsteren]

This is probably obvious but foul when you have reserves and your opponent doesn't.

[Digger Goreman]

Lotsa stuff out there in search land (sometimes hard to find)...: viewtopic.php?f=20&t=30066&p=541835&hil ... ul#p541835

In that thread,

Fouling, as mentioned earlier, is a rule... and to be used whenever it's appropo....

For me, there has to be an advantage... and it's subjective:

If you're an Elf or Dwarf... you're gonna get fouled...!

If you have an irritating or cheesy skill set... you're gonna get fouled...!

If you're wearing/spouting greedy wank'rs promotional material... or are just an insufferable git... you're gonna get fouled...!

If you have Ag 4+... you're highly likely to get fouled...!

If you're the "lynch-pin" of the team... (positional, et al., with the rest of the team being gimp linemen)... you're highly likely to get fouled...!

If you're a "Spam-a-Lot" team (ubiquitous block/dodge/leap/etc.)... you're highly likely to get fouled...!

If I can guarantee you can't reach my ball carrier if you're not there... you're likely to get fouled...!

If I can "clear the lane" or "even the field" (especially if I can trade a cheap lineman for an expensive opponent)... you're likely to get fouled...!

If I have a deep bench... you're likely to get fouled...!

If I'm really losing the game... you're likely to get fouled...!

If you're outnumbered and my kicking you while you're down means you likely won't get up... you're likely to get fouled...!

I may not foul every turn... and sometimes I don't in a whole game... but the boot will fall should I feel it needs to....

It may be subjective... but, for me, fouling has to serve a purpose!

[Master Wang]

If I am a bash team against an agility one and I have a bench, I'll foul looking to get in plenty of assists. I'll do it on offense if the ball is safe, and on defense if I don't have a good chance of stopping them or want them to hurry up and score.

If I am Flings or Gobbos, maybe I'll foul every turn.

If I am bash vs bash, it depends on the numbers and whether I can win through good play. It also depends on what my opponent does.

If I am agility vs anything, it'll depend on the situation - who I can foul, whether it is worth the risk.

Having bribes, chainsaw players, dirty players or sneaky gits could change all that, but I usually only have such things when I am Flings or Gobbos...

[Asperon Thorn]

There are two distinct and mutually exclusive parts to the art of fouling.

There is the mentioned . .opportunistic foul The opportunity arises to get a key player off. You just need to get assists over there and foul. You have no choice. Dirty player is more than useful.

However . .the other art of fouling is simply "no amount of fouling is too much."

That is less of an art and more of a doctrine, because you start in turn 1 and go for 16 fouls. Each one with assists. Useful with teams that have hobgoblin types and spams of Dirty player. . .Teams that lack the muscle to win a conventional attrition game, but have enough depth in the roster to win it that way.

So drop the boot down . . heavy and often. . .likely will change the entire league.

Asperon Thorn

[mattgslater]

Asperon and Wang posted while I was writing. I think I say a couple of the same things they do. but not all the same.

I think there are really four conditions that suggest fouling, and some conditions that can prohibit it if those circumstances are met.

Fouling conditions

1) Victim. Some teams don't function well without certain players, or function really, really well with them. If you take out a Runner, the Dwarf offense gets very limited; take them both, and it falls apart. Star Players go out this way a lot, especially as they tend not to get support commensurate with their on-the-pitch value. Frequently, the best victims are on teams like Chaos Dwarfs and Undead, because these teams don't play well when down key players or outnumbered (see 4, below).

2) Situation. If a player is prone, but has a great potential action for the next turn, you can deny him this action by fouling him. Under these conditions, a stun can sometimes make all the difference. If it prevents the blitz that would have stopped your TD, then going down a man may be worth it. Usually, the players who get themselves into these situations are also the kind of perfect victim outlined in 1, above. Likewise, fouling and applying good pressure (fouling alone is not enough) may force a staller's hand.

3) Opportunity. Sometimes, it's just too juicy to pass up. This is like a situational foul (2, above), except that the tempting element is the odds of the foul yielding a gain, rather than the immediate impact of the player's next action. For instance, if your DP Zombie on a 14-man Undead team can foul a Wardancer at +4 on Turn 2, then he probably should. Dirty Player and Sneaky Git exist to create this factor. Also, sometimes late in a decided match, you want to foul with your better, more fragile players; after all, it's hard to get killed after you've been ejected.

4) Numbers. If you're strongly up numbers, or if your opponent is at 10-11 men and can't play man-down, foul, foul, foul! In this case, going for stronger, faster or more valuable players is best, but just taking bodies out is what really counts. Usually, when you have the numbers to foul, you also get the great opportunities, too, as per 3, above. If it's the last turn or two of the game, you can foul without concern for numbers. Who cares if you get ejected on Turn 16? But then again, why would you foul on Turn 16? It's not like you get SPP.

Conditions Not to Foul
1) Thick Skull. This isn't a total no-no; some Thick Skull players, like Bull Centaurs, Dwarf Runners and Big Guys, are worth fouling despite the fact that the odds don't usually favor the fouler. But never foul a Thick Skull player over numbers or opportunity alone.

2) Situation. If it's early in the drive, and the game is neither in hand nor out of hand, it's best to foul only if you can meet two of the above four conditions. As the game progresses, the importance of this falls off. If you've lost, go ahead and start fouling. If you've won and the other guy is fouling you, go ahead and foul back.

3) Opportunity. Unless the game is already decided or you have Sneaky Git, don't foul unless you have AV6 or less, at a bare minimum. Be very hesitant to foul AV5-6, unless you meet multiple conditions.

4) Numbers. If you're down numbers, then only foul if you're sure you can't win, or if you meet multiple conditions for fouling.

[mattgslater]

However . .the other art of fouling is simply "no amount of fouling is too much." [... You] start in turn 1 and go for 16 fouls. Each one with assists. Useful with teams that have hobgoblin types and spams of Dirty player....

I did this in 3e. Didn't win me any friends, did win me a lot of games and skills. But even then, I only took one or two Dirty Players, and that was when DP was +2 to both rolls, foul Cas were worth SPP, assists were easier, fouls were at a native +1, injury rolls couldn't eject you, and you could Argue the Call. I guess that's partly because MB worked on fouls too, back then.

I do agree that there are a few teams that can play that way, at least early on. But even then, you need to be careful about getting the odds going your way. If you're not fouling a key player or at a net AV4 or less, it's not worth an action IMO unless you've got something strong to recommend it.

[funnyfingers]

My fouling rules are:
If I have 13+ players and they have 11 players total, fouling will be part of the picture getting the first foul as early as possible.
It can't just be a foul, it would have at least 4 assists, but generally I will have even more especially against a 9AV.
I have let some juicy fouls and even a crowd surf slide when protecting or going after the ball is more important.

If I have 11 players vs a greater number fouling is almost pointless if not self defeating.
If I have 11 players and gained an advantage of 11 to 9 maybe I will foul a positonal, but only if I can get plenty of assists.

[Carnis]

FF has it pretty good.

Foul only if it doesn't bring you below your opponent's # of players next half.
Foul early, and plan your blitz for it. (Blitz towards your side of the pitch, to get max assists & choose a target that is vulnernable).
Foul until your DP is sent off.
Don't foul without a DP (unless opponent is stunty, or low/no reserves, or you have a significant man advantage and it's 2nd half and can bring AV below 6).
Don't foul thick skull.
Don't sacrifice too much position to foul (gangfouling in first turn of defence & offence is often ok, the best fouls are done with cage-corners + 2 extras.) No sacrifice needed then.
Don't foul if you are already 1-2 men down on the pitch, this will be counter-productive as you cant bring enough assists (except vs stunties, who are just too easy to foul out with their +1).
If your opponent is gonna make a comeback next half, don't stop fouling.
If you spot a niggle, DP or no DP -> FOUL away!
Bring a bribe if you plan to foul & the opponent isnt very bashy (vs bash take apoths).
Don't foul with elves, too expensive (relative rule, sometimes its worth it).

[Smeborg]

sunnyside - the above replies have covered most of what you asked for. I limit myself to describing how I find fouling working in practice nowadays:

1. Most of my fouls nowadays (in 5th and 6th Editions) are for tactical (i.e. immediate) advantage. For example, I need to form a cage next to a prone player, so I form the cage around him, and then foul him (to ensure he cannot sack my ball carrier). Stunned bodies can also form neat obstacles for the opponent.

2. A secondary reason is to foul targets of opportunity (typically key players with low AV such as Wardancers, Witch Elves, Gutter Runners etc. - the list is long). I find myself doing this quite a lot in tournaments (since opposing teams usually have few such players, the foul can win a match by itself).

3. A third reason is for numbers advantage, but the advantage usually needs to be quite tangible (for example, my opponent is already down to 11 men, it is late in the first half, I have reserves, so I try to reduce the number of opposing players for the second half).

4. Lastly, there is the "gratuitous" turn 16 foul (maybe turn 8 as well), where I have nothing better to do. Particularly useful in tournaments or any format where CAS stats count for something. In a league, whether to foul a valuable player in this way is usually a matter of established social etiquette and a question of strategic advantage (do you want that player killed for the benefit of your team, or do you want him to survive and harass other teams?).

In ideal conditions, it is possible to combine some of the above motives in a single foul.

Hope that helps.

[Dragoonkin]

My next league game, tomorrow, I'm playing against a team that has 710 TR on me. Literally the only way I'm going to win is by wrecking his field.

So I'm Inducing Glart with Claw, then three Linemen with Dirty Player. His bench is 11. Mine will be 15, two of which are Journeymen and four are Induced. So I can lose a lot before I even have to think.

Fouls are going to be from nearly turn 1 to 16, or until he concedes. (Which is my actual goal. I really need the double-payout, as you can tell by the two Journeymen.)

[Mango]

There is 1 other reason to foul that i dont think has been mentioned........protection

If you are getting kicked off the pitch, there is no chance of victory and you want to protect an essential positional then foul someone and hope for a double

If they get sent off they cant be injured or killed