Claw - any armour roll of 8 or more

[Rhyoth]

I'm quite confused here : almost everyone agrees that Claw alone is quite poor compared to Migthy Blow.

The only "problem" appears when these 2 skills are combined. So, if any of those two skills has to be nerfed, why should it be Claw, when the "problem" obviously comes from Mighty Blow ?

Of course, you'd still have to demonstrate that MB + Claw is too powerful, and I don't think it's the case in a real environnement (teams with easy access to Mutation have too many drawbacks).

[funnyfingers]

I've brought up Player Values in other posts and the same would go here. Claw/MB or Claw/MB/PO are more powerful than just the 40 or 60K they are worth. You can solve most of these problems with a sort of combo value added to the base value. Maybe 10K - 20K per skill in a combo.

Various underrated combos:
Claw/MB
Claw/MB/PO
Block/Dodge
Block/Dodge/Side Step
Stunty/Two Heads/Extra Arms/Big Hand

But of course these skills are relative to the other team, which wouldn't mean someone of these combo values couldn't be dependant on which team you are facing. All of this makes the calculations harder, but probably makes for a more even matchup.

[Smeborg]

Claw is an asymetric skill - it only works against AV8, AV9, AV10 (the higher the better).

Piling On can be countered by Fend in most circumstances (if you are a Whingeing Elf and worried about the safety of your precious players).

Mighty Blow is a good skill, but needs to be combined with blocking skills to work best (you have to knock an opponent over before Mighty Blow comes into effect).

I don't fear any combination of these skills, whichever side of the table I am on. They add fun. Damage skills are part of the paper/scissors/rock combinations that make up the game we love. A team that is heavy on damage-inflicting skills will be light on skills that do other things (ball moving, ball hunting, protecting its players, etc.).

All the best.

[Aino]

Smeborg, you nailed it!
+1

[MattDakka]

Piling On can be countered by Fend in most circumstances (if you are a Whingeing Elf and worried about the safety of your precious players).

Yes but, while a Piling On player can target the players without Fend, on the other side you cannot have Fend on every player in the team, generally only the LOS Linemen and some Blodgers (Elf/Amazon Blitzers come to mind),who could have took Sidestep (more useful at low TV, because there are less Piling on player around) before Fend, pick Fend, not the whole team.
The Piling on player simply will focus on the player without Fend.

[Grumbledook]

you shouldn't be taking skills just for their short term value though

if you are worried about lots of piling on later then take fend rather than side step, it isn't like it doesn't have use early on

[MattDakka]

you shouldn't be taking skills just for their short term value though

if you are worried about lots of piling on later then take fend rather than side step, it isn't like it doesn't have use early on

In a realistic scenario it's better to pick Guard or Sidestep (to exploit better the wide zones' ways and the squares adjacent to the sidelines), because Piling on is pretty rare outside Cyanide's environment (I faced in MM a Dwarf team which had Piling about on each and every Longbeard, obviously with Mighty Blow packed in).
And, even with Piling on, still the rest of the team won't be protected against Piling On, making it a strategy not so effective like it could appear.
An offensive skill like Piling on can choose its target, while you cannot save each player in your team, for you will never have Fend on every player, yes, you can stay clear of Piling On player with your players lacking Fend, but soon or late you will suffer a Piling on block.
While one Piling on is pretty effective for its TV, taking lots of Fend early only to counter the Piling on threat is unrealistic and unwise, Fend is good, but after some team's development (nonetheless, for LOS linemen is good as second skill after Wrestle).
Yes, Fend is useful for other purposes as well (reducing Dodges and Frenzy blocks suffered) but I never met a team with lot of Fend, I found more often Block, Dodge, Sidestep personally.

[Grumbledook]

I beg to differ, though rather than get this thread any more off topic I'll leave it at that ;]

[Dzerards]

Yes, Fend is useful for other purposes as well (reducing Dodges and Frenzy blocks suffered) but I never met a team with lot of Fend, I found more often Block, Dodge, Sidestep personally.

You've never seen my Norse then!

http://www.stuntyleeg.com/index.php?sec ... obj_id=862

[MattDakka]

Yes, Fend is useful for other purposes as well (reducing Dodges and Frenzy blocks suffered) but I never met a team with lot of Fend, I found more often Block, Dodge, Sidestep personally.

You've never seen my Norse then!

http://www.stuntyleeg.com/index.php?sec ... obj_id=862

Yes they could take Fend as 2nd skill, because they start with Block.
Try to build an Elf/Dark Elf/Wood Elf/High Elf team or Human team that way.
P.S. Only one Tackler could be not enough against agile/dodging team, Amazons come to mind.

[Dzerards]

Yes they could take Fend as 2nd skill, because they start with Block.
Try to build an Elf/Dark Elf/Wood Elf/High Elf team or Human team that way.
P.S. Only one Tackler could be not enough against agile/dodging team, Amazons come to mind.

Mass block and some frenzy kinda make up for the lack of tackle. Your point stands I suppose as only Norse really can do it of the bat.

But as a matter of fact I'm developing my High Elves the same way. They're all going to skip dodge altogether and take Fend as skill two. Half the linesmen (and half the catchers) are going wrestle, fend and the other half, plus the blitzers, side step, fend. The thrower might get it as a third skill. It's a kinda metagame experiment. The idea being, by the time I've loaded everyone up with dodge, everyone else will have loaded up on tackle. By foregoing dodge across the team, where I might suffer at lower TV, I'll have an edge at the higher TV.

But that's getting off topic I suppose. In a league environment I don't think there is anything wrong with claw. It teaches those cheesy dwarf coaches what it feels like to play a AV7 team.

[MattDakka]

Yes they could take Fend as 2nd skill, because they start with Block.
Try to build an Elf/Dark Elf/Wood Elf/High Elf team or Human team that way.
P.S. Only one Tackler could be not enough against agile/dodging team, Amazons come to mind.

Mass block and some frenzy kinda make up for the lack of tackle. Your point stands I suppose as only Norse really can do it of the bat.

But as a matter of fact I'm developing my High Elves the same way. They're all going to skip dodge altogether and take Fend as skill two. Half the linesmen (and half the catchers) are going wrestle, fend and the other half, plus the blitzers, side step, fend. The thrower might get it as a third skill. It's a kinda metagame experiment. The idea being, by the time I've loaded everyone up with dodge, everyone else will have loaded up on tackle. By foregoing dodge across the team, where I might suffer at lower TV, I'll have an edge at the higher TV.

But that's getting off topic I suppose. In a league environment I don't think there is anything wrong with claw. It teaches those cheesy dwarf coaches what it feels like to play a AV7 team.

The early mass-Fend for Elves skipping Dodge it's an interesting idea, I will try it in Cyanide, where Dwarf teams prosper.

[Smeborg]

In my ideal Nurgle team development, all the AV8 players get Fend (normally as second skill) - of course this hasn't happened yet in practice. The AV9 players get S-Firm, also as second skill (and come with F-App, for added protection). So P-On would need to come with Claw/M-Blow before worrying this team unduly - not a common combination, because of the number of acquired skills required (or doubles).

Fend is a skill which seems to increase in value, the more of it you have on a team. For example, I find a Norse LoS consisting of 3 Linos with Fend to be rather effective (speaking as an opponent).

All the best.

[cbbakke]

I think a big part of the issue is how Claw interacts with piling on and Mighty blow. The way they all combine makes for a death machine against anything.


You have like a 55% of removing somebody from the pitch on a knockdown with the skill combo with 31% chance of a cas.

I think the other part that I think is missing on the overall attrition is that yes 9 AV players are going to live longer, but they also gain SPP points far slower then most of the lower AV players.

Orc Line man gains spp super slow but lives a long time (3 turns to score with them, 10th person to get to block on the team bo,blitzer,troll all come first) In the team their role is to fill gaps and support the other players.
- limited access to dodge

Black Orcs are in the same situation. 4 turns to score, hard to use until they get block. without luck you not getting your 2nd skill for a long time.


Human lineman Slow SPP gain and midlife. No skills, stuck in the roll of being a line player with ability to score in 2 turns. Slightly better then the orc version for getting spp. Meduim life span.
- limited access to dodge

Dark Elf lineman (slighty more expensive) Moderate/easy SPP gain) 2 turn score but can catch, throw or dodge with easy and it is easy to get the player their first and 2nd skill. Their survivablity is better then the humans due to 4 agility to dodge out of blocks, the team not needing them to hold hte line and access to dodge skill.


Wood elf lineman (slighty more expensive) fast spp gain. Shorter life span due to 7 armor.
4 agility provides a lot of hit mitigation and access to dodge skills.


One assumption (I dont mean that in a snotty way games are built with assumptions) that has been made is that the 8-9 av need something for increased attrition rate. AV is only one factor of attrition, it is a big part, but I think how much 4 agility plays out is far under-estimated.

4 agility has a 83% chance of dodging away which gives them 100% mitigation.
3 agility has a 66% for the same dodge so right there the chance of getting hurt doubles. Also these players tend to be in roles that they have to protect other players so they are made to get hit.
2 agilty 50/50 to dodge. I think you get the point.

Dodge skill, side step also are huge mitigation of attirtion for players. Side step can avoid you taken many hits. How many times does a player get bounced between blockers until he falls over. Side step can avoid a lot of that. Also many times I won't hit a side step guy because I know he can move into the gap I need to move through.

I am new to the board here, but have played blood bowl since 1995. I have never seen an issue with high armor teams becoming the all powerful in the end game. They die less, but dwarves are a bad long term team. Orcs are an average long term team. Chaos is a good longterm team (also less effected and benefits from claw).

Does this mean I hate death in bloodbowl? No. I like carnage but also love the strat part of the game, that is what brings me back to the table. When a combination makes the game a dice rolling event to russian roulette that has nothing to do with strat I see it as a flaw in the game. I went through the pains of Dirty player and Mighty blow stacking for a combined +3/+3 on injury rolls on fouls.

I would say dirty player should get a buff so it does more damage and fouling itself should be far easier to get caught and far easier to get bodies off the pitch.
I have always thought that dirty player should not be a game plan of how to remove the other team completely but more of how it is in hockey. You have your one defensiveman who is on the 3rd line and when he comes into the game he is going to get into a fight pretty quick. This player is willing to get kicked out of the game to take somebody else out with them. So you have your dirty player try to take out the star player with both of them off the field still being a gain for you.

The rampade just foul every turn game plan is not a strat, it is a dice rolling event. If you roll well you win, if you dont you lose. No brain power needed.

[Darkson]

Cupcake - any of the crap that you try and pull on the Cyanide forum, and I'll ban your account before you can say "Claw is not OP".

This is your only warning.