Underworld strategy advice - please help

[Smeborg]

Here is my take on the Underworld Pact team after 20 games, and a solid test of a good "theory-bowl" design against practical tabletop play. I would like to thank the many contributors to this thread, who have been very helpful, and have steepened my learning curve rather nicely. I hope also that I may contribute to the learning process for anyone considering playing this relatively new "race".

The team is resourceful, cheap, and has access to all skills on a normal roll. It plays against all races with roughly equal competence (well coached bash teams and agility teams are equally difficult opponents!). It will appeal to anyone who likes playing a sporting style of game with a disappearing roster. The team can play in most styles as required (stall, run, hand-off, pass on offense; rapid counter-strike or delay up to a point on defense). But you need to be prepared to play well when outnumbered on the pitch, which can happen at any time and against any opponent (the team has the skills to do this). Reasonably rapid skill development can be expected. They are lightly built street urchins with attitude and sticks of dynamite (a.k.a. mutations). Never dull. And their performance is quite a bit better than I expected (somewhere in "tier 1", I suggest).

A distinguishing feature of the team is that it is stark naked on defense. Perhaps one player can be protected from attack on the first turn. Accordingly, I am considering a more punchy and generalist build for next season (JAN2511):

W-Troll: Claw, Guard, Tentacles, S-Firm (doubles: Block, Tackle)
S-Vermin: Guard, M-Blow, Claw, Tackle, D-less (ignore doubles)
Throwers: Block, Tackle, Claw, Horns (doubles: M-Blow)
Linerats: Block, Tackle, Horns, Claw (doubles: M-Blow)
Gobbos: 2-Heads, Horns (doubles: Wrestle, Tackle)

The changes from my strategy this season (which is working fine) are:

- Forget "team" skills (Leader, Kick, K-Ret). Go instead for "universal" skills (don't worry about who's in the dugout).
- Aim to build more "can-openers" (4 will put the fear of Nuffle in most opponents).
- Get 6 Skaven with Block ASAP, and plenty of early Tackle (second skill on 4 players).
- Develop the Throwers as Blockers/Bltzers rather than Runners (rely more on the S-Hands, Pass that they come with).
- Develop the Linerats in the same way as the above Throwers (Horns or Claw as 3rd skill being the main question).
- Give Wrestle to the Gobbos (not the Linerats). Don't expect any skilled Gobbo to have a long life. Just try to make it a happy one.
- Take +1AV on a 6,4 for all players (and on a 5,5 for the S-Vermin). Plenty of AV penetrations are on failed dodges.
- Forget Dodge on the Skaven. Up the stakes instead with M-Blow.

Now I don't know how well this team would play compared to my current one, but I think it might do rather well, and it would certainly not be dull. The M.A.D matches against other slayer teams would probably get quite a lot of spectators. Potentially you could have 7 players that opposing players would think twice about standing next to. Now that would be very different.

All the best.

[plasmoid]

Hi Smeborg,
I'm surprised that you have abandoned dodge. Dodge certainly worked well for me, buth by adding mobility and survival rates. I fear that with mighty blow you will become deadlier, but also that everybody will be dying, not just the gobbos.

Either way - would you be interested in writing a playbook?

Cheers
Martin

[cyagen]

Yes Dodge is the best double for the rats. Also, they should consider 2 heads to keep them mobile, you have only 6 ST3 players so you need to have them where they are needed.

Regarding the throwers, I agree that they must be more blitzers than runners. However, Extra Arms is a must for their first skill. It almost assures you of picking up the ball, allow for cheap comps and for a viable catcher.

What is nice about Underworld is that it is such a flexible team, so here would be my skill choices

W-Troll: Claw, Guard, Tentacles, S-Firm (doubles: Pro, Block) Makes him more effective and allow him to use TTM a lot more, not to score TD but to hurl unskilled gobos at the oppositiion
S-Vermin: M-Blow, Claw, Guard, Tackle, Horns (doubles: Dodge) I think the can opener route is the best for these guys.
Throwers: extra-arms, Block, Tackle, 2 heads, Horns (doubles: Dodge) see above
Linerats: Block, Tackle, Horns, Claw (doubles: Dodge)
Gobbos: 2-Heads, Horns (doubles: Wrestle) Do not plan too much ahead on these guys, they will die a lot and you do not want to use the Apo on them.

Not a better approach, just another one.

[Smeborg]

Hi Smeborg,
I'm surprised that you have abandoned dodge. Dodge certainly worked well for me, buth by adding mobility and survival rates. I fear that with mighty blow you will become deadlier, but also that everybody will be dying, not just the gobbos.

Either way - would you be interested in writing a playbook?

Cheers
Martin

Martin - I haven't abandoned Dodge, it's my double of choice for all the Skaven this season. It's just that I haven't rolled any yet (in 16 skill advances for them). We run until November/December, so I may get to see how it does. As stated somewhere above, Skaven are the targets of choice for opponents in our league, Gobbos are just targets of opportunity. So I suspect that in any mature league, Skaven players with Dodge will be targetted by opposing Tacklers (which will be to the benefit of the Gobbos, but will not help preserve the Skaven). In any case, marking a 2-Heads Gobbo with a Tackler is much less productive than marking a rookie Gobbo (another argument suggesting that Tacklers will go after any Skaven with Dodge).

What interests me is that I expected the Underworld to play more like an agility team, but in practice they have surprised me by doing classic 2-1 grinds in the bash team style quite often. This suggests that the Underworld are a bash team waiting to come out - something I'd like to explore to its logical conclusion in practical play. This means attempting to build a team capable of getting a numbers advantage (or at least maintaining parity of numbers) against anybody. [A possible analogy would be a slayer Norse team, but with Claw instead of Frenzy?!].

I would'nt expect to be in a position to write a playbook for the Underworld until the end of 2011 (after 2 full seasons of play). And don't forget - I have to write one first for Nurgle, remember?

All the best.

[Smeborg]

Yes Dodge is the best double for the rats. Also, they should consider 2 heads to keep them mobile, you have only 6 ST3 players so you need to have them where they are needed.

Regarding the throwers, I agree that they must be more blitzers than runners. However, Extra Arms is a must for their first skill. It almost assures you of picking up the ball, allow for cheap comps and for a viable catcher.

What is nice about Underworld is that it is such a flexible team, so here would be my skill choices

W-Troll: Claw, Guard, Tentacles, S-Firm (doubles: Pro, Block) Makes him more effective and allow him to use TTM a lot more, not to score TD but to hurl unskilled gobos at the oppositiion
S-Vermin: M-Blow, Claw, Guard, Tackle, Horns (doubles: Dodge) I think the can opener route is the best for these guys.
Throwers: extra-arms, Block, Tackle, 2 heads, Horns (doubles: Dodge) see above
Linerats: Block, Tackle, Horns, Claw (doubles: Dodge)
Gobbos: 2-Heads, Horns (doubles: Wrestle) Do not plan too much ahead on these guys, they will die a lot and you do not want to use the Apo on them.

Not a better approach, just another one.

cyagen - I like your development strategy, which is logical and consistent. Bear in mind that my strategy this season has (so far) been very good for preserving the Skaven players (only one has died, with no SPPs; the crippled one was due to botched surgery). I suspect that taking Guard as first skill on the S-Vermin has helped in this regard, and I am reluctant to abandon the idea.

I agree that X-Arms is a good skill on the Throwers, we just differ in when to take it. You take it as first skill, I take it (this season) as 2nd and 3rd skills (after Block on one, and after Leader+Block on the other). I like early Block on the Throwers (you cannot get more than 6 blockers without doubles, the sooner you get them, the better IMO).

I also agree that 2-Heads is a good skill on the Skaven. I plan it as the next (5th) skill on both my uber-Thrower and my uber-Linerat (would have been 4th skills, but they both got +1MA).

Maybe variant development paths for my next season would be:

Throwers: Block, X-Arms, Tackle, Horns, 2-Heads (Dodge on doubles, which might mean taking 2-Heads earlier)
Linerats: Block, Tackle, Claw, Horns, 2-Heads (still M-Blow on doubles, if you get 1, you have 4 can-openers)
Ignore +1MA and +1AV advances altogether (notwithstanding that both +1MA players have been outstanding this season)

But I still kind of like the idea of just going Block/Tackle/Claw on 2 of them and Block/Tackle/Horns on the other 2. I can live with a less reliable offense.

All the best

[cyagen]

This is why i love this team, so many strategies are viable with them and it fits many playing styles.

I like your skill choice also, I am intriged by your "blashing" team. I just do not agree with passing on dodge.

I also have a relatively good retention rate with the rats, but it has probably more to do with my recklessness with the Gobos, I never hesitate to put them in harms way to protect a rat.

[Smeborg]

This is why i love this team, so many strategies are viable with them and it fits many playing styles.

I like your skill choice also, I am intriged by your "blashing" team. I just do not agree with passing on dodge.

I also have a relatively good retention rate with the rats, but it has probably more to do with my recklessness with the Gobos, I never hesitate to put them in harms way to protect a rat.

The Gobbos need to be treated as expendable, no matter how many skill advances they have. That's simply how they play. And many opponents fall into the trap of going after the Gobbos - fine, let them. Although I have used the Apoth a few times on skilled Gobbos, I hate doing so, and suspect that one must learn never to do it. In an ideal team, if you can maintain at least 4 Gobbos with 2-Heads, that's more than enough. On defense, maybe 2 on the field is enough.

I guess with so many skill choices available to every player, this team is never going to have a development path that can be set in concrete. I agree with you that passing up on Dodge seems heretical, but the idea of an AV7 team that does great violence (and, perhaps more importantly, that nobody will want to stand next to!) is very appealing. My entire success with Nurgle stems from the point that I decided to develop and play the team in "heretical" fashion. There's only ever one way to find out...

All the best.

[Smeborg]

Martin and Cyagen - I forgot to include my "soundbite" view of the Underworld, which is a main starting point for my skill development thinking:

"Whereas Nurgle are the passive mutant team (the players work during the opponent's turn), Underworld are the hyperactive mutant team (during their own turn)."

It is merely a question of playtesting to see how far this idea can be pushed (for both teams).

All the best.

[yumi_cheeseman]

I took underworld to a tournament recently (of which I posted about in the tournament section). I also have them in a league team with just a few games under their belt.

The team I took was

Troll + claw
2 throwers leader + block
2 SV with guard
2 linerats with wrestle
5 gobs, 2 horns, 2 2-heads, and a rookie
skitter stab stab

In a league team I doubt I'd grab leader, also in the tournament I would have taken tackle over wrestle next time, and the 2 horns guys were 2 unreliable, so I would of swapped 1 for 2 heads.

In my league team I grabbed block on both throwers first, at first it was because my other thrower was MNG, and I needed him to survive, but then I gave the other one block too, because my team was really lacking it. I didn't want to give extra arms, because if I rolled a +AG after extra arms I'd shoot myself, and I was lucky cause I did roll a +AG

Both my Blitzers only just level'd up at the same time and have both grabbed guard (I was a bit iffy about this, but after tournament play where they easily won me at least 1 game if not more...), MB and Claw will likely come next mostly following your advice Sme. I do sort of miss the opportunity to have a killer, with MB Claw and pile on though.

Linerats I plan on taking wrestle, tackle, horns (and hopefully dodge or +AG, or even a +STR!). Neither have even got a single SPP yet.

none of my gobs have managed to lvl, but they should soon! Doubles = wrestle, who can then get horns next for super awesome anti cage .

[The Painted Goblin]

I'm about to start an Underworld team in a long-term league and have found this thread very useful, so thanks for that

Am I right in thinking that general consensus is the two linerats are the main receivers? And if so, why don't people pick extra arms, diving catch (on a double) as main skill picks for at least one of them?

Am I missing something?

[Smeborg]

Painted Gobbo - the way I see it is as follows:

The Troll and Blitzers are Blocker types, and will typically get tied up in larger or smaller scrums, trying to inflict damage, or lending Guard assists. Of course the Blitzers can be receivers if the opportunity presents (but this is relatively rare).

You actually have 3 preferred receivers (the 2 Linerats and the Thrower who is not holding the ball).

The Gobbos are secondary receivers (in case of need).

You have only 6 players who can take Block (or Wrestle) on a normal skill advance (i.e. the Skaven players). Of these, the Linerats and Throwers start without Block/Wrestle. Giving them Block or Wrestle early (say first or second skill) is a high priority for both the players themselves, and for the team.

Because they represent the "strength" players, all the Skaven need to be developed at least partly for defense, rather than solely for offense.

With so many interesting skills to choose from, I doubt that there will ever be a generally agreed development path for this team.

Hope that helps!

[The Painted Goblin]

Yes, that makes sense - thanks Smeborg

[Eggball]

Thanks Smeborg and everyone else for the sage advice! I'm planning to take Underworld to an unorthodox style of tourney (Deathbowl) and have found this thread very helpful. Team allowance for this tourney is 1,250K which you can spend any way you want... you can buy any skills or stat increases - almost too many options when it comes to an open-ended team like this one. There are four teams on the pitch at once so things are very chaotic as you'd imagine. Players regenerate after matches so injuries are less of a concern. Here's the roster I've got planned so far:

W-Troll: Claw, Tentacles
2 x SV: MB, Claw
2 x Thrower: Extra arms, Block, Leader on one
2 x Linerat: Tackle, Wrestle/Block (unsure)
1 x Gobbo: 2-Heads, Big Hand
1 x Gobbo: 2-Heads, Horns
2 x Gobbos: 2-Heads
2 x RR

I have a question about the troll: does TTM come up much in play? It doesn't seem to figure in this thread's discussion very much.

[cyagen]

I used TTM around once a game, mainly to use Gobo as projectiles.

It is an option that you got, but do not bet on it working.

Also, in that tournament, plan for a lot of St4 Wardancers....

[Ullis]

I don't really use TTM myself apart from 1-turner attempts on Underworld. There are usually so much better options for achieving something. What's more, since there's only one troll, it tends to be in tz's.

But on to linerats. What would be a good doubles skill for linerats in early development? I'm thinking Guard or Dodge. Took Guard myself on a linerat with no other skills (and the storm vermin haven't skilled up yet either) but now I'm unsure as to whether Dodge would've been better. Since the team already has a smattering of Dodge on the goblins, giving it to every rat who gets doubles could be a good idea too.

Since my linerat got Guard, my plan is to give him Block next and Two Heads if he ever reaches the dizzy heights of 31 spp's. Or Dodge on doubles.

Last game was actually quite strange. I threw 18 blocks against 46 for my opponent and won 2-1 easily. A fumbled short pass was the only thing that kept it from being 3-0. I guess those blocking numbers should normally equal a decimated Underworld side that lost the game.