Hand-off and set-up rules questions

[rozia]

As per LRB 2.0, what are the answers to the following questions:

1. If hand-off fails, but the ball scatters to other player and back and get finally caught by intended recipient, is it a turnover or not ?

2. If I have 11 players available, but set up only 3 players on the LOS, leaving the rest in the reserves, is such setup legal ?

Piotr

[Grumbledook]

I think that as long as someone on your team catches it, then its not a turnover much like a pass would be the same.

Also yes its legal, as long as you set 3 up on the los if you have at least 3 then you can choose to leave the rest in reserves.

[DoubleSkulls]

1. If hand-off fails, but the ball scatters to other player and back and get finally caught by intended recipient, is it a turnover or not ?

Its not a turnover. So long as one of your players ends up in possession of the ball then its not a turnover.

2. If I have 11 players available, but set up only 3 players on the LOS, leaving the rest in the reserves, is such setup legal ?

Officially yes, but IMO this is a silly rule.

[Kraff]

I was under the impression that a missed pass/handoff is only NOT a turnover if the original recipient ends up with the ball. If another player on your team gets it then it is a tunrover as it is if the ball bouces on the gorund... That would mean a fumbled hand off is always a turnover and a pass has to scatter back to where the intended receiver catches it. That's what diving catch is for...

[Grumbledook]

No only a failed pickup is a turnover, even if it scatters to a team mate who catches it.

A fumbled throw is a turnover, but as long as its not a fumble and someone on your team catches it before it comes to rest, even if wasn't the target of the throw, then its not a turnover. So i assume the same would apply to a handoff, but of course you can't fumble them cause there is only a catch roll involved.

[Hox-ii]

Here's my take... Since there is only a catch roll involved, if the catch roll is failed, I personally feel that this should be a turnover, regardless of who ends up with it after the ball bounces. The living rule book states that a turnover occurs when "The ball is passed and not caught by a player from the moving team..." A failed catch roll will cause the ball to scatter. Catching this ball, either by a player in another square or by the initially intended target, is just catching a regular bouncing ball. This means that the initial pass was NOT caught, even though the ball ends up in the moving team's hands. Per the LRB rule stated above, this should be a turnover.

The LRB really should have it's passing section updated on what the 3 scatter rolls represent when a pass is inaccurate. I've always assumed that those three scatter rolls determines just how inaccurate the throw is - the ball never bounces on these rolls, it's just determining where the ball will land. Therefore, an inaccurate pass can clearly still be caught by a player on your team, as long as they are where the inaccurate throw lands. However, if this ball lands in an unoccupied square and BOUNCES to one of the moving team's players, a turnover should occur.

[Munkey]

The LRB really should have it's passing section updated on what the 3 scatter rolls represent when a pass is inaccurate. I've always assumed that those three scatter rolls determines just how inaccurate the throw is - the ball never bounces on these rolls, it's just determining where the ball will land. Therefore, an inaccurate pass can clearly still be caught by a player on your team, as long as they are where the inaccurate throw lands. However, if this ball lands in an unoccupied square and BOUNCES to one of the moving team's players, a turnover should occur.

I quite like this take on the rules, it would require a bit of extra explaination but might clear up some of the confusion around dropping the ball and TO's.

At the moment I believe that any attempt to hand off or pick up the ball that fails results in a TO but a throw that ends up in the moving teams hands (by however convoluted a series of rolls) is not a TO.

This ruling would allow an innacuarate pass to still be caught by a lucky player (or one with diving catch) but clear up some confusion as the TO occurs when the ball hits the ground (ie. bounces).

[Hox-ii]

Well, the league I've been running uses that interpretation of the rules for a few reasons. For one, that's the way I interpreted them when I first read the rules; I'm probably wrong, but that doesn't mean I have to like it.

Second, it adds more meaning to the +1 modifier for having an accurate pass. I never could figure out why an inaccurate pass would always land in the square the player was trying to throw it to (wouldn't that make it accurate?), and then bounce three times. This way, an inaccurate pass may actually land in a square not intended to without even bouncing, allowing a different player on the same team to try and attempt to catch that pass, without the +1 modifier.

I guess this just seems like a rule that I never thought was controversial; I always thought that everyone played the same way that I have mentioned. Like I said, I would love for some official clarification on this point, perhaps in a future update of the LRB.

[Darkson]

An inaccurate pass ends up in the 3rd scatter square, not in the original square and then bounce 3 times.

[Kamikaze Rudy]

The LRB really should have it's passing section updated on what the 3 scatter rolls represent when a pass is inaccurate. I've always assumed that those three scatter rolls determines just how inaccurate the throw is - the ball never bounces on these rolls, it's just determining where the ball will land. Therefore, an inaccurate pass can clearly still be caught by a player on your team, as long as they are where the inaccurate throw lands. However, if this ball lands in an unoccupied square and BOUNCES to one of the moving team's players, a turnover should occur.

That's exactly how we play the rules in our league as well Hox-ii. I think it works rather well, just a little difficult to explain to a newcomer.

[Snew]

The ball touching the ground has absolustly nothing to so with it being a turnover. If the ball is still moving/scattering/bouncing/whatever and a member of your team comes us with it, it's still your turn. If you change these fundamental rules, you're changing the whole way the game plays. It's far to risky to pass or handoff the ball. Don't mix up scattering and bouncing either. The ball bounces at the end of the scatter. The scatter is just where the throw ends up. Not where the thrower threw it. I didn't understand what you meant when you said an inaccurate pass always lands in the square it was thrown to. That can happen but it doesn't happen very often.

Munkey,

A player with Diving Catch must be the intended recipient for him to use the skill but he gets to move even if he can't catch the ball (unlike Pass Block)

[Longshot]

1/ I would say turnover but i would agree with no turnover
2/ in our league, we Have to put on the field the max (up to 11) players that you have. But i dont know if lrb say it also...

[Indigo]

A player with Diving Catch must be the intended recipient for him to use the skill but he gets to move even if he can't catch the ball (unlike Pass Block)

This is interesting - reading the rules, It says "A player can use this skill if the ball was thrown to him..."
After looking at your interpretation, I now think that the only time the diving catch skill can be used is if the Catcher was the intended target but the pass missed.

However, everywhere I have played has interpreted this rule as if the ball scatters to a square adjacent to a player with this skill, he can attempt to catch it BEFORE the bounce. If he fails, he is moved to the ball's square and it scatters once from that square.

How do other people interpret this?

[Grumbledook]

Its the player the ball was intended to be thrown to, so imho you play it wrong ;]

If the ball scatters to where they are, they weren't the intended target, hence can't use it.

[Joaquim]

Yes, he only can use it if he was the intended receiver.... on the other hand he can use it even if it doesn't bring it to the square where the ball lands (that is: ends scattering)...

Yes, I guess everyone plays that way: a scattered pass ends in the square where it finished the 3rd d8 roll... even for me (the portuguese dictionary translation of scatter looks strange, like several balls were throwed... ) the rule is quite clear....

Perhaps they could just have said that the pass would end in that square, instead of saying that it cann't be catch, and doesn't touch the floor before the 3rd d8 roll.... some lawers/players fault, i guess..?...