3 Vamp skillups

[Carnis]

I'm skilling up three vampires soon (1 already skilled) in a round-robin league with 9 teams. The other teams are:

Old High Elf team, Old Skaven team, Old and very bashy Nurgle team, New Dark Elf team, New Human team, New Chaos Dwarf team, New Chaos team, Old Amazon team.

I got 3 vamps getting to 31/51 SPPs for their first skills post-Dodge / Block.

V1: Dodge/Block/Tackle/-AV Rolled 6+4 -> Considering between MB&+MA. Favouring MB atm.
V2: Dodge/Block -> all options open, I'd like to take pro, but the sheer possibilities are astounding..
V3: Dodge/Block/+ST -> 10 SPPs from a skill, but I've no idea what to pick. Side step, pro, guard and tackle are all tempting.

The thralls are mainly wrestle/dp spamming with guard doubles, considering taking dodge doubles from now on..

[Drool_bucket]

I am just starting Vamps, so take this with a grain of salt...

Putting MB on your -AV vamp makes him more of a target (not that he isn't already) and means you'll probably hit more often, which means you'll lose out on SPP for your other Vamps and lose all of them when you cut him/gets killed. I'd go with the MV (or diving tackle!)

cause...

on the STR 5 guy I would take MB. He can smash all by himself, make him better at it. MB first, then Tackle or Frenzy...

Guard on the middle dude. It will help your Thralls some and take pressure of your STR 5 guy. Hypnogaze and Guard is great, IMO.

[Carnis]

SPP spread is not a threat with this team. About 50-60% of the vampire's SPP comes from comps & TDs, which I have great control over.

[Grumbledook]

side step would be great on all three

you have just the one tackle with all those dodge players in the league? I know vamps are pretty flexible with their movement but perhaps another could be handy

[sunnyside]

Side step or Fend would seem tempting. I've never played vamps, but playing agaisnt them their big flaw seems to be that after using hypno gaze, they're standing right there to take a block, and their armor isn't that good. After a while things tend to degenerate into a mosh pit or a couple vamps break and I run roughshod over the rest of the team.

I'm guessing that's why you went for all around blodge.

Anyway if you find yourself moshing a lot of games, sidestep helps, especially when you've got a bunch of chainpushes each turn and the sideline starts looming, though a little frenzy, grab or even leap would be nice to have as well.

[Carnis]

I took MB on the tackle vamp, if he had more AV or less specialization I might have taken +MA.. MB netted +2 CAS the first game so seems a solid choice.

Blodge is a pretty no brainer with vamps, if you want to block and get blood lust, just block on and bite a thrall. If you fail a BL, then you still have only 1/36 chance of vamp going out (this sequence still happens once in every 216 actions, has happened to me and lost me a game) due to blood lust + turnover before biting. Also keeping vamps standing is the big issue, if they are down you have basicly no options, if they are up you got 6 MA + 2 GFIs and dodge ALSO helps there as you can get free "GFI's" by taking corner dodges at 2+.

I see a lot of people hail sidestep with vamps, I wonder if guard would be better though, if you get stuck?

Eventually I hope all of them to get blodge/pro. This leaves all of them with 2-3 skills to pick (3 if they skip pro).

Some comboes that I've considered:

Pretty sure I will get on my Tackle/MB - PRO and Piling on at 76 & 176 - not decided on the order, though (176 is unlikely).

Pretty set on developing one vamp: Pro/Sure hands/Side step

The +ST vamp: no idea - considered skipping pro for multiple block + MB for 2 seconds for hilarity.. Also thought of either Guard, Sidestep, Tackle, Frenzy, MB, Diving Tackle but none of them seem to combo enough with ST5. I'm leaning towards Pro/Frenzy atm..

Would mean the remaining vamp would pretty much have to take guard and tackle, but I feel this may really not be the best way to develop the team..

[Smeborg]

Carnis - one of our coaches is having considerable success with Vamps (he is a relative newbie, and it is his first time with Vamps). One of his Vamps is developed as a Thrower: S-Hands, S-Arm, KoR (I think). I rather like the idea. Pro is also good, obviously.

And I would be inclined to take +1MA when it is on offer. Vamps, like Amazons, suffer from having everyone with MA6.

All the best.

[Carnis]

Sure hands S-arm is a solid choice too, obviously (2+ short passes).

I just wonder if S-arm/KOR has much utility on defence or the turns you arent picking up the ball..? 2+ passing are nice, I might even consider pass doubles for such a player.. Still seems to me that more generalist skills should be preferred on players that get fielded 16 turns?

[Drool_bucket]

I am considering carry a 5th vamp on my team, and he will be the first vamp how rolls doubles on his first skill, which will be Safe Throw

then Strong Arm and Kick Off Return/Sure Hands.

He won't play on Defense at all, hopefully replaced by a Kick Thrall... (theory BB here, folks!)

I can only imagine being able to advance the ball by a throw will help Vamps a massive amount on offense, which is where they seem to struggle.

I wonder if Safe Throw is better than Pass or Accurate. My theory is that Vamps will be in a lot of traffic and I don't want too many Interceptions. And I think I'll be able to get off a 2+ Short pass more often than the 3+ Long Pass, and with a bunch of re-rolls on the team, Pass seems redundant...

anyways, back on topic, I don't care for the MB choice for my first stated reason which appears to have come true, your AV 7 vamp, who I would be looking to replace, netted more SPPs because he's more tempting to hit with... but every team needs a Mighty Blow/Tackler, so its not like you took Sure Feet or something!

[Carnis]

But every team needs a Mighty Blow/Tackler, so its not like you took Sure Feet or something!

I think sure feet is a valid pick on an all MA6 team, actually.. ;P

[Drool_bucket]

But every team needs a Mighty Blow/Tackler, so its not like you took Sure Feet or something!

I think sure feet is a valid pick on an all MA6 team, actually.. ;P

not over +1 MA, wuzzah!

[sunnyside]

You know I'm liking the vamp thrower concept. On a vamp strong arm is as good as accurate in most circumstances, and for a team that sucks down the TRRs like they do sure hands could be nice.

But what I like most about it is that vamps biggest problems seem to be on offense. On defense hypnogaze is horrifying, and often they can afford to have a vamp run off and bite somebody and just go on with their turn.

However I always seem to be able to stuff them when they're on offense against me. Hypnogaze can open up routes, but it isn't that great since they only have MA6 and it gives up too many blocks, also any bloodlust roll that goes bad can be catastrophic for them so every turn you take before scoring your TD is another turn you could screw it all up even without factoring in what your opponent is up to.

A thrower might help a lot.

[Drool_bucket]

Carnis, sorry your thread is getting derailed...

I just think a dedicated Thrower opens up the pitch, which any team with AV8 and AV7 and multiple AG4 (not to mention STR4) should be trying.

They can't score if this devolve into a smashing match.

But if you can send four vampires deep I don't know many teams that can reliably shut them all down.

The major issue remains the MV 6 of the Vampires. Not being able to score in two turns hurts any passing team. So, like I've seen Orcs play, its about getting to put the ball in the cage you want while hopefully pulling a few players deep to threaten the passer. And instead of a crappy AV 8 orc thrower, you're getting a STR 4 passer (with a nearby snack) which may get opposing coaches to send more than one or two players deep.

[Carnis]

The major issue with vamps is always the lust, not the MA. It'd be fairly easy just to put my players backfield, make a cage, toss the ball in. The problem comes with lust, if I got 4 vamps downfield, I'll on average fail a blood lust check every 2nd turn.

So at least when I'm on offence I tend to do one of two things:

1) Free thralls with blocks/blitzes & hypnoes to get 2-3 of them backfield. Follow up with vamps and form a cage, this is the "running play". Takes about 3-7 turns to get backfield. Usually this involves changing the ballcarrier every turn by making SPP generating quick passes.

2) Send in 2-3 vamps who didnt fail their BL, make a sideline go for it & try to cover their escape with a double screen, then the next turn pass the ball over. Usually this is done when down on players or one ahead in score due to defensive Td. This way you get a long time for your possible 3-0 whilst 2-2 is unlikely..

The issue is, even with play #2, I can usually do it just as easy with a handoff + quickpass, if I need to get 13 squares accross. So I dont see where I need the strong arm again.. Sure hands is ok, cause it cancels strip and works also on defence (on loose balls).

[Smeborg]

Carnis, I guess it's a question of playing style, but in my experience as an opponent of well-coached Vamps, a Thrower Vamp opens up the game a great deal, much to the advantage of the Vamps.