Norse linemen skills

[gijimmy]

i'm playing in an eight game league and i'm trying to figure out what skills to give lineman. last season i just took lots of tackle but this season i'm not playing any dodgey teams. i'm thinking fend or pro. fend has been discussed before but i was thinking pro to try and get the most out of my blocks. any thoughts? thanks.

[mattgslater]

In a short format, the real question is: what's your starting build? If you're lino-heavy, Pro to make up for the lack of positionals. If you're positional-heavy, Fend to play the LOS.

[gijimmy]

after one game i have 7 lineman, 2 blitzers ( one with MB), 2 ulfs (one with block), and a thrower and 3 rerolls.

[Carnis]

Fend:

Every time you have to tag a player with it, if you don't die your player either gets to 1) Hit back (both down) or 2) Move (pushback/pow without armor break).

If you start massing a lot of these fend players, ie. they get to their 2nd or 3rd skill without a skill just make them man the LOS, they will start dying as long as you dont give them apoth rights.

PRO?

I wouldnt really consider it on a norse team, dauntless or tackle over it any day imho, if you want to improve your blocks.

[mattgslater]

Only if you're the type who avoids ST3 positionals with your starting build, as in that case you have to use linos to do everything and can't specialize in a short format. Otherwise, Fend. In this case, Fend, and maybe a Kicker.

[sunnyside]

Have a kicker is useful, and, if you find yourself with much of a bench, a dirty player can be nice to have, at least for keeping your opponent "honest".

I'm actually surprised to find mattgslater suggesting pro at all, given how "small ball" his style usually is. I could see using pro as a later skill on a runner because they already have a skill that they can afford to fail without causing a turnover. Maybe a zerker for the same reason.

However in most cases I think pro is just more risk than it's worth. Norse are usually happy to get a push, and the risk of turning a push into a doubleskull turnover sort of puts a wet towl on the use of pro in blocks.

I guess what I'm saying is I'd rather have another team re-roll or a thrower with leader than three linemen with pro.

Fend is just useful. It keeps guys alive, keeps them mobile, and lets them play the sidelines better, which is where Norse like to take the game.

[Smeborg]

I speak as an opponent of the Norse (!).

For me the choice is between Fend and Tackle. Fend is awesome on the defensive LoS, especially if you have 3, 4 or 5 Linos with Fend. Tackle, however, is rather nice, since it allows you to give other early skills to the "positional" players. Who else will take Tackle as their first or second skill?

All the best.

[purdindas]

Have a kicker is useful, and, if you find yourself with much of a bench, a dirty player can be nice to have, at least for keeping your opponent "honest".

I'm actually surprised to find mattgslater suggesting pro at all, given how "small ball" his style usually is. I could see using pro as a later skill on a runner because they already have a skill that they can afford to fail without causing a turnover. Maybe a zerker for the same reason.

However in most cases I think pro is just more risk than it's worth. Norse are usually happy to get a push, and the risk of turning a push into a doubleskull turnover sort of puts a wet towl on the use of pro in blocks.

I guess what I'm saying is I'd rather have another team re-roll or a thrower with leader than three linemen with pro.

Fend is just useful. It keeps guys alive, keeps them mobile, and lets them play the sidelines better, which is where Norse like to take the game.

I cant fault anything sunnyside has said here. I back him 100%.

In my experience Norse lineman are made to die in droves. Any skills that help keep them alive are gold. Fend does this and will also give your team a bit more maneuverability. You know it makes sense

[mattgslater]

I'm actually surprised to find mattgslater suggesting pro at all, given how "small ball" his style usually is.

Situational. I hate the Norse ST3 positionals, and don't like having them on my team. Runners are bad for your skill curve, Blitzers are bad for your positioning games, and Throwers are just bad bargains. None of them survive long enough to build any significant combo value. So I use linos to do everything, meaning I burn TRRs at a mile a minute. It's nice to have guys you can act with safely, late in the turn. One or two instances of Pro can do the job. Better than Pass, anyway.

But if I were starting with 3x ST3 positionals, you couldn't pay me enough to take Pro as a #1 skill. #3, without hesitation, but that only speaks to the lack of depth in G skills.

[Joemanji]

Obviously you want some Tackle at some point. Maybe a Sure Hands if you don't have a Runner.

After that I think Frenzy is a good pick. Norse aren't subtle. You can't afford to be with AV7. So you need to hit things and make sure they stay hit.

[Dzerards]

After that I think Frenzy is a good pick. Norse aren't subtle. You can't afford to be with AV7. So you need to hit things and make sure they stay hit.

Fend is awesome for getting your linos out of trouble. Frenzy is a great way to put them back in heaps more trouble!

[Drool_bucket]

Kick/Fend/Tackle/Fend/DirtyPlayer/Fend (Guard on doubles)

then keep plugging away with Fend and Tackle...

Norse don't want to stand next to people. If its the Norse players turn you 1blockdie them away hoping to knock them down, push at least. If its the opponent's turn you hope you stay on your feet and Fend the opponent from your TZ.

It helps to keep you average team moving along because of "free" players.

It helps with your average team STR by allowing free players to move to assist. (plus your limitation of selecting Guard on good players to take Guard)

It helps against other Bashy teams that have gone the Pile-On route. You can mark those dudes with these 70K Block/Fend players to protect your valuable 90K+ positionals.

I don't see the need for Pro on Norse. Matter of fact, I rarely see the need for Pro.

[mattgslater]

i'm playing in an eight game league...

That's the only thing that made me think Pro. With only 8 games to play, I'd ignore Berserkers, Runners and Throwers: 9x lino, Apoth, Snow Troll, 2x Ulf, 4x TRR.

Even with that build, I'd still only consider one or two Pro players, and not before getting a Kicker and a SH guy... but in such a short format, that's pretty much all I'd get. In a really short format, Norse positionals are a liability, but not having positionals is also a liability in any format, so building a couple mini-positionals makes a big diff. Also, in such a format, if all your line-fodder are competing for skills with the backfield, you pretty much get zero option for buffing the LOS.

Otherwise, Pro is strictly an option for AG4 players on bash teams, like +AG Blitzers, or as a late hunter skill. Pro'ing pushes and nothings, and TRR'ing skulls, on 2d blocks, you get the following odds:

Vs. rookie: 2/27 of all results turned from push into...
1/324 skull, plus
1/12 pow (+12.5% relative odds; 5/6 total)

Vs. 1-skill: 35/288 of all results turned from push/nothing into...
5/864 skull, plus
25/216 pow (+>20.8% relative; 145/216 > 2/3 total)

Vs. 2-skill: 1/9 of all results turned from push/nothing into...
1/108 skull (without a TRR, these "worst" odds are 1/27, 1/3 the risk of an unskilled block; with a TRR, it's 13/1296, as opposed to 16 unskilled).
11/108 pow (+33.3% relative; 4/27 total)

Given also the ability to turn 1/3 (AG3) or 5/12 (AG4) of AG failures into successes, it makes end-of-turn actions a lot more likely, too. When you don't have a TRR, 7/9 to dodge is a lot less desperate than 2/3; in fact, it's 2/3 of the way to a rookie elf. When you plan a handoff into safety at the end of your turn, you don't have to package in an effort to keep your TRR, or an alternate plan for what to do if the TRR fails. It's not like having the position player you need, but it is like having him where you need him, with a skill that helps him do whatever he's doing now.