Vote: your opinion on wild animals

[narg]

My snow troll is driving me mad and I saw posts here saying that they are so great. Just out of curiosity I'd like people to vote to give their opinions on snow trolls and on minotaurs as well as they are fairly similar: both wild animals with loner and frenzy, access to block on a double only and access to claw / mighty blow.

[nazgob]

Well, I would suggest that you missed an option: "I blitz with him once, and then use frenzy blocks to keep him basing the opponent's pieces. When recieving, I don't even need to do that as I put him on the line of scrimmage."

The major benefit of wild animal is that you never have to be afraid to move him, as he never loses his tackle zone. If you always have to blitz with him, that could be your problem.

[Ulthuan_Express]

I find the Wild Animal to be the worst nega-trait, as it forces you to use the Big Guy as a particular type of player. Need to blitz somewhere else and just have to reposition, or even stand the Mino up? Pffft, good luck.

The no loss of tackle zones at least is some compensation, when compared to Bonehead/Really Stupid, but put a WA on the floor and there's a good chance they'll stay there, crying like a baby.

I do, however, love the existence of all the nega-traits for Big Guys, and think they're a brilliant game mechanic, but I just hate to have to work around that particular one

[plasmoid]

I think they're good at first. Snow trolls more so than the others, because it is so easy to get claw + mighty blow.
Then, as you develop more realiable but equally deadly blitzers, the usefulness of the wild animal plummets.

[solarflare]

The wild animal is something your opponent has to account for. A S5 player with frenzy can force your opponent into bad situations.

However, if you use any player with loner and a negatrait (wild animal or not) to execute your key move each turn, the dice will (sooner or later) not be your friend.

[inkpwn]

I like it more than really stupid that's for sure. Personally when I had my chaos minotaur all I did was blitz/block with him. But you have to leave it till later in the turn, no block and loner can turn a potentially amazing piece into a 1 turn tragedy. Also again with the chaos minotaur because you don't lose tackle zones tentacles is allways in effect when not on the floor. (I know a lot of people don't pick it because of the 8AV)

[Carnis]

I think the WA bit about them is Horrid, however in some teams their usefulness outweighs their downsides, while on others the usefulness does NOT outweigh the downsides. Treemen have a worse nega-effect, though.

Chaos (+++):
Mino has free Mutations access, hence the defaultbuild of: Block/Claw/Tentacles/Stand Firm/Guard only needs ONE double. Statistically every 2nd mino makes it in 4 skillups, definedly a worth pick. Also, you only need 1 (3die) blitz to get your tentacles in a TZ, then you get free blocks afterwards.

Chaos Dwarves (--):
CD Minos need doubles for mutations, so the same combo needs three doubles. I'd recommend skipping it, but might pick it up just to see if there's any use. Mostly I think it'd be the opponent's 12th player.

Chaos pact (---):
Already have 2 unreliable big guys in team, already have 12 players who become better killers (no doubles for block, claw, no WA). I can't really justify having a minotaur in a pact team at all.

Skaven (+-):
Rat ogre is a tossup, useful in giving free frenzy, av8 and some STR. Skaven blitzers become better killers with one double (claw), though. I'd guess most rat coaches can incorporate one, even if not really relying on one too much.

Norse (+++):
Their single biggest problem is with AV9 teams, here claw/mb is just so needed I can't justify playing without the troll. A player with Block/MB/PO is more reliable to get a KO against AV9, but if your snowtroll can get Piling on, Multiple block or Block he will then again outbash the MB/PO guy and will spend less time being prone. Often you can mark chaos warriors, BOBs with the troll and not end up wasting many blitzes at all. Getting block is again, pretty likely, a little over every 2nd troll gets it by skill 4.

[Joemanji]

I'd agree with most of the points made by Carnis. For some teams, the WA gives them an option they need, or is too good to turn down (Norse/Chaos). Whereas for Chaos Dwarfs particularly I find them a complete liability.

WA is the most annoying negatrait IMO. I just hate that they so often spend 3-4 turns lying on the ground doing nothing. Take Root is a worse skill, but a rooted Tree isn't much of an issue for Woodies, and Halflings have 2-3 of them and can reroll it.

WAs are better by an order of magnitude in tournaments I've found. At TV110 (+ a few skills) the other team often just does not have the tools to deal with a ST5 player. Sure they turn over, but there are more turnovers on both sides because of the lack of skills & rerolls. Shallow benches also means that if the WA goes off and kills some guys with his MB it can turn the game. None of these factors apply nearly as often in leagues. At even TV>130 one turnover can decide the game, and so risks must be minimized at all costs. Tournament play rewards a "balls-out" style of play much more.

[mrmojoz]

As a Pact player I use all three big guys. Wild Animal rarely bothers me at all, I find it one of the easiest nega traits to deal with. Lack of easy to get block + loner has lost me games though. I've scored many a tuchdown by letting the mino bulldoze a path on the flanks so I can't complain too much.

[narg]

Nice post Carnis!

Some background on why I hate him so much:
After about fifteen games I got so annoyed at my snow troll that I fired him (on top of that he had a niggling injury and two skills without block) and the games I played since then without him went really well. Then in my last game as I had to play against chaos dwarves I decided to listen to advice from this forum and I hired a new one. On turn 1 I received, he tried to throw a block and rolled a 1 on Wild Animal. On turn 2 he tried to throw a 2D block, got skull / both down, wasted a reroll in the process, knocked himself out and never came back. So in summary he was taking back his old habits, as this is roughly what he had been doing before I fired him (in the game just before getting fired he got knocked out on the first turn, came back on turn 8 but without being able to play, got sent off the pitch because of Sweltering Heat and never came back - the other players in my league find it very funny). In the fifteen games before he got fired the highlight of his career had been to take out a treeman, but in fifteen games that's a bit light in my book. That being said I guess I'm just persistently unlucky with him, I'll just have to keep trying...

[Carnis]

Nice post Carnis!

Some background on why I hate him so much:
After about fifteen games I got so annoyed at my snow troll that I fired him (on top of that he had a niggling injury and two skills without block) and the games I played since then without him went really well. Then in my last game as I had to play against chaos dwarves I decided to listen to advice from this forum and I hired a new one. On turn 1 I received, he tried to throw a block and rolled a 1 on Wild Animal. On turn 2 he tried to throw a 2D block, got skull / both down, wasted a reroll in the process, knocked himself out and never came back. So in summary he was taking back his old habits, as this is roughly what he had been doing before I fired him (in the game just before getting fired he got knocked out on the first turn, came back on turn 8 but without being able to play, got sent off the pitch because of Sweltering Heat and never came back - the other players in my league find it very funny). In the fifteen games before he got fired the highlight of his career had been to take out a treeman, but in fifteen games that's a bit light in my book. That being said I guess I'm just persistently unlucky with him, I'll just have to keep trying...

Sounds like you are taking 2die blocks a lot, and also sounds like you may be using him too early in a turn. Do not feed him rerolls, he likes eating them for breakfast. Don't take 2die blocks, if you can avoid it, get the 2 assists and make it 3.. Leave his block last in turn.

A troll blitzing 2die first action every turn will get some 1/6 chance of failing the blitz, and a 13% chance to turn over per turn. So it's not rare, get used to it ;P. If you are playing AV7 its actually a good idea to bench him, if there's no tree to block at..

[Joemanji]

My Snow Troll is the worst player in history. When I started the team he had a few good games and got the MVP in two. Hit 16SPPs that fast and got Juggs + MB right away. "This guy is awesome" I thought.

Next game vs Dwarfs - I was rubbing my hands in glee! This is what he was built for. So I declare a blitz action with him on turns 1, 2, 3 & 4 ... and roll four 1s. Okay, so the Dwarf team scores so I have a 3D block lined up on the LoS. I roll a 2+ for WA ... and hit the 1/27.

In my last four games he played a grand total of 2/64 turns. MNG'd turn one, misses the next game. Third game he blitzes turn 1, double skulls and MNGs himself again.

What. A. Chump.

[Darkson]

Agree with nazgob on the poll, and carnis on the post.

[narg]

Sounds like you are taking 2die blocks a lot, and also sounds like you may be using him too early in a turn. Do not feed him rerolls, he likes eating them for breakfast. Don't take 2die blocks, if you can avoid it, get the 2 assists and make it 3.. Leave his block last in turn.

A troll blitzing 2die first action every turn will get some 1/6 chance of failing the blitz, and a 13% chance to turn over per turn. So it's not rare, get used to it ;P. If you are playing AV7 its actually a good idea to bench him, if there's no tree to block at..

Well actually no, I don't take 2die blocks a lot and that's one of the reasons why my last snow troll didn't get that many SPPs. In my two anecdotes he only had time to throw a total of one 2D block, it was late in the turn and it was to remove a tackle zone on my ball-carrying thrower. It was not a blitz and it was against a minotaur so no way to get 3D (I wish), I calculated that the chances of failure on his 2D block were lower than on the dodge but in hindsight I guess I should have dodged - never trust a snow troll! The reroll was necessary because on a turnover my thrower would be left within blitzing distance of other opponents.

Benching him against AV7 is certainly a good idea! Although it sucks a bit to have a 140k piece on the bench...

[TuernRedvenom]

WAs are better by an order of magnitude in tournaments I've found. At TV110 (+ a few skills) the other team often just does not have the tools to deal with a ST5 player. Sure they turn over, but there are more turnovers on both sides because of the lack of skills & rerolls. Shallow benches also means that if the WA goes off and kills some guys with his MB it can turn the game. None of these factors apply nearly as often in leagues. At even TV>130 one turnover can decide the game, and so risks must be minimized at all costs. Tournament play rewards a "balls-out" style of play much more.

Absolutely. Especially if you can give a doubles skill to a player of your choice. Skaven with a Block RO become sooooo much better.
Although he's pretty good without block as well. Just don't do too many 2 dies and basically just ignore him when you're on offence (just pin down 1 or 2 opposing players with the tail).