Pick up a ball

[Grumbledook]

seems like everyone else disagrees with you...

it is no more simple than my original reply imo

[Ulthuan_Express]

seems like everyone else disagrees with you...

Only Demagoge, it seems

Fail a pick-up = automatic and immediate turnover. Nothing about the ball coming to rest, it's immediate. Even if it bounces to one of your guys (catching it or otherwise) it was already a turnover.

Fail to catch a Pass/HO = turnover once the ball comes to rest and you haven't got it. But we're not catching a pass, we're picking up the ball.

So, in the situation given, if it's your turn 8 and you fail a pick up, your turn is over. If your opponent has already had his turn 8, you're trying to catch the scattering ball in the endzone once the final whistle has gone, because it's already been a turnover. So no TD.

Where am I going wrong?

[Rhyoth]

I agree with Grumbledook : the best way to deal with such situations is to use common sense : if a player is standing in the Endzone with the ball, it has to be a Touchdown.

Now, if you want a more technical answer :

A team scores a touchdown during their turn when one of their players is standing in the opposing team’s End Zone while holding the ball at the end of any of your players' Actions.

In Jaque Liquer's example, at the End of Player 2's Action, the Blitzer is standing in the opposing team’s End Zone while holding the ball... so a Touchdown it is.

[Ulthuan_Express]

Original question, because I'm re-reading the situation to check I've got the scenario correct:

What happens? Turn 8 (for both), Player 1 is down after Blitz near own TD Zone, The Blitzer is standing in the Endzone, Ball comes to rest in front of the Blitzer. Player 2 wants to pick up the ball and make an handoff. Pick up fails and the balls scatters to the Blitzer.
Is it a TD?
It is a Tournover cause he missed to pick up the ball and the Game Ends.
Or is it a TD because the Ball doesn't come to rest.

I agree with Grumbledook : the best way to deal with such situations is to use common sense : if a player is standing in the Endzone with the ball, it has to be a Touchdown.

Now, if you want a more technical answer :

A team scores a touchdown during their turn when one of their players is standing in the opposing team’s End Zone while holding the ball at the end of any of your players' Actions.

In Jaque Liquer's example, at the End of Player 2's Action, the Blitzer is standing in the opposing team’s End Zone while holding the ball... so a Touchdown it is.

The problem with that is that it's not the team's turn, because that turn was already over as soon as they failed to pick-up the ball. Scattering to the guy standing in the end-zone is purely academic as the game/half is already over - it was an immediate turnover, rather than one when the ball comes to rest.

[besters]

The rules don't say anything about the ball coming to rest or ending immediately if the pick up fails, it isn't mentioned at all in the Turnover rules re picking the ball up.

I would suggest this is a grey area.

I persannlly would say the turn doesn't end until the ball is scattered and and dice rolls completed, but you could take the opposite view, although again I have never come up against it, but I guess it is a rare occurrence anyway.

[Stout Youngblood]

seems like everyone else disagrees with you...

Only Demagoge, it seems

Fail a pick-up = automatic and immediate turnover. Nothing about the ball coming to rest, it's immediate. Even if it bounces to one of your guys (catching it or otherwise) it was already a turnover.

Fail to catch a Pass/HO = turnover once the ball comes to rest and you haven't got it. But we're not catching a pass, we're picking up the ball.

So, in the situation given, if it's your turn 8 and you fail a pick up, your turn is over. If your opponent has already had his turn 8, you're trying to catch the scattering ball in the endzone once the final whistle has gone, because it's already been a turnover. So no TD.

Where am I going wrong?

You aren't wrong. Your answer is correct to the original question.

[Grumbledook]

it seems obvious to me this situation wasn't considered when the rules were written

ergo my stance on common sense allowing the touchdown, odd crazy somewhat ridiculous things like that happening is something encouraged under the rules

[daloonieshaman]

it seems obvious to me this situation wasn't considered when the rules were written

ergo my stance on common sense allowing the touchdown, odd crazy somewhat ridiculous things like that happening is something encouraged under the rules

When did NUFFLE mention anything about common sense.

You have to look at 3 rules that come into play here.

1) Picking up the Ball pg 8
"If the player drops the ball then the team suffers a turnover and the turn ends immediately."
(result no TD)

2) Scoring a Touchdown pg 15
"A team scores a TD during their turn when one of their players is standing in the opposing teams EZ while holding the ball at the end of any of your players Actions" the Action was Handoff, the end of the Action was not complete. picking up the ball is not a player Action. (player Actions: Move, Block, Blitz, Pass, Handoff, and of course my favorite FOUL!)
(result no TD)

3) Scoring in your opponents turn pg 15
"If one of your players is holding the ball in the opposing team's EZ at any point during your opponents turn then your team scores a TD immediately, but you must move your turn marker one space ...."
turn 16 (or 8 for first Half) the opposing team has already moved Turn 16 (or 8 for first Half) you cannot move your Turn marker as end of half/game has been called
(result no TD)

Logic, reason, desire, intent, common sense have no bearing when the three points covered in this situation which all result in no TD.
Granted, I personally think it should be a TD in the spirit of the game.
In modern Pro sports when the whistle is blown play is stopped. (That is why they do not blow the whistle in Football if the play is active after time expires, and review all penalties after the event)(And you all foreigners darn well know that the Ref in Soccer (Futbal) is God. If he blows the whistle it is over even if the ball is traveling to the net (of coursed he would get linched after the game...))

[Greyhound]

Can we actually generalise this problem to any action where the ball bounces AFTER a turnover.

- picking up the ball
- Moving and failing a GFI (if the player was holding the ball)
- Blocking.

• the character blocking had the ball and get Attacker Down
• the character blocking had the ball and get Both Down and suffers a turnover
• the character blocking get Both Down and suffers a turnover and his opponent didn't have Block and held the ball.

All these actions, would result in an immediate turnover THEN the ball bounces and could end up in the end of a character in position to score.

[Darkson]

(I hate typing with the on-screen keyboard)

2) Scoring a Touchdown pg 15
"A team scores a TD during their turn when one of their players is standing in the opposing teams EZ while holding the ball at the end of any of your players Actions" the Action was Handoff, the end of the Action was not complete. picking up the ball is not a player Action. (player Actions: Move, Block, Blitz, Pass, Handoff, and of course my favorite FOUL!)
(result no TD)

Nowhere does it say the action has to be completed (successfully or not), it just says at the end of the action.

The rules used to say the ball had to come to rest before the TO occured, but I'm not sure if that is still there.


I'd rule a TD anyway, whether the rules say it or not, even if it cost me the game.

[Grumbledook]

Granted, I personally think it should be a TD in the spirit of the game.

I like how you typed out loads of stuff disagreeing with me then added that in which is exactly what I've been saying ;]

[Dzerards]

Reading the turnover rules on page 7 I see no reason why not to award a TD.

It says "A coach that suffers a turnover is not allowed to take any further actions that turn, and any action being taken ends immediately... ... if the ball was dropped, roll to see where it bounces normally. ....and then the opposing coach may start his turn."

The implication being both, that while the player's action is ended, the turn has not ended until the ball has come to rest, and that catching the ball (not an action by the way) in the opposition's endzone occurs in the same turn as the failed pick up and not the following turn.

Edit, I know on page 8 it says the turn ends immediately, but I don't think that makes sense, as you still have to roll for the scatter, turn over stunned players, resolve blood lust, and probably other things too, before the turn ends. Given the contradiction I would go with the page 7 rules and still award a TD.

[GalakStarscraper]

Its pretty clear and obvious from the rules that a TD is meant to be scored when an action ends and someone is holding the ball.

A turnover is still an action ending and if during the after resolution someone catches the ball from your team than its a TD IMO.

Is this spelled out in the rules ... NO. Technically ... you can argue that since the turn is over that the TD cannot be scored until the exact second when the opposing team turn starts and then it would be scoring on your opponent's turn. But there in lies the patch to the 150 page rulebook for Blood Bowl.

Galak

[Dzerards]

Galak, you're such a spoil sport! That was shaping up to be an nice 8 page long, über-pedantic debate of Tentacles/Hynotic Gaze proportions!

In future you should wait a week before coming in with the definitive answer and let us have our fun! I was getting all my parables together to explain how if I said I was going to pay you at the end of the month, but dropped the money on the way to meet you and it bounced about for a bit and then... Well maybe that one needed a bit more work.

[Ulthuan_Express]

Galak, you're such a spoil sport! That was shaping up to be an nice 8 page long, über-pedantic debate of Tentacles/Hynotic Gaze proportions!

I see no clarity here! In Galak's opinion it should be, but he also says you could argue against it on technical grounds...

Continue the analysis of the word immediately in five...

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