Orc Blitzer Agi 5 what now???

[mattgslater]

Because he's AG5, you'll often put him in spots where he'll want to hit without following. I'd be hesitant to take Frenzy before I already had Stand Firm and/or Tackle; if he ever gets to 176, Frenzy would be great, because then you never want him to get the ball.

If he doubles and gets Leap, Frenzy at 76 would then make a nice complement.

[solarflare]

I guess I figure I can manage where/when I want him to follow or not follow. Especially with AG5. Of course, you have to pay attention, so you don't get him surfed, but you really force an opponent to change his plans when you have a highly mobile frenzy player. He has to play more toward the center (which is where all those black orcs are). I guess it's not for everyone, but I would take frenzy in this situation every time.

[mattgslater]

Even with Guard?

[solarflare]

Well, yeah. With planning, you should be able to keep him positioned correctly (most of the time).

Of course, frenzy does have its occasional drawbacks (and should be generally avoided by less experienced players). And I could see an argument for taking it on one of the other blitzers instead. It's just that mobile frenzy can really force your opponent to change his plans. Also, I do not think that stand firm is a bad option. Strip ball or tackle could also be quite effective.

Y'know, maybe I'm talking myself into a circle here, but strip ball/tackle may be better on the AG5 player and then placing frenzy on one of the other blitzers. But they would be much easier to plan around.

[mattgslater]

I think he adds to the value of Strip Ball on the team, but I think you're better off building a Lino that way, with Wrestle first and Strip at 16 SPP. Then, let this guy come in and pick up the pieces.

[solarflare]

Nothing wrong with wrestle on a line orc. But I really only want to take strip ball on a mobile player. MV5/AG3 just is not mobile enough to take advantage of strip ball consistently, imo.

[VonGoldkokse]

First game with him and i lost (Dorfs where almost everyone had MB as first skill :/)

But he managed to score so beautifully. He made impossible Dodges.

[mattgslater]

Nothing wrong with wrestle on a line orc. But I really only want to take strip ball on a mobile player. MV5/AG3 just is not mobile enough to take advantage of strip ball consistently, imo.

I like Strip Ball best against hard-hitting teams that tend to be low on mobility. Set MA5 up as a safety, inside the box, and it's plenty to get into position for the big hit.

[Smeborg]

Nothing wrong with wrestle on a line orc.

I agree up to a point. The problem comes when you add Piling On to other players on the Orc team (Blitzers for example). How many players can a slow team afford to leave on the deck?. For me (I speak as an opponent who has seen this work out through a league season), I think you have to decide between Wrestle on the Linos and Piling On on the Blitzers. It is hard to make the team work with both. If you want an Orc team specialised in dealing damage, I think you can make a case for Block/Tackle on the Linos.

[mattgslater]

I sort of agree with Smeborg. I think you can have two or three guys with skills that may take their actions away, keeping in mind that neither skill gets active use on every block. I don't see either skill as spam-worthy on an Orc team, but it's nice to have either in the right place at the right time.

I only like to take one Piling On, as the #3 skill for my Frenzy guy. That guy and one Lino who takes Wrestle first. I also tend to take one Goblin with DT, but DT isn't the same thing, because it usually causes a turnover. I must admit that I have never given this guy Strip Ball. Usually his track is Wrestle-Kick, or Wrestle-Tackle, depending on how my #2 Thrower is doing. If I take only one lino, I may take a Dirty Player instead, especially if I'm facing a bashy format.

Giving up a zone for a RR on either AV or Inj is generally not worth it if you do it a lot, but can be very profitable with judicious application. Let's talk Injury only first. If a knockdown is one turn lost, a stun two, a KO five, and a Cas eight, then an injury roll is worth (2x21+5x9+8x6)/36 = 135/36 = 3.75 turns lost, and with MB (2x15+5x11+8x10)/36 = 165/36 = 4.58 turns lost. So you're burning a skill selection, a TZ and an action in order to get 1.75 or 2.58 actions off your opponent (who loses 3.75 or 4.58 actions, but would have lost 2 actions anyway). So you're netting 0.75 or 1.58 actions after standing up your PO guy, plus a little SPP, less the value of the TZ and the skill you didn't take. Probably worth it, but how often will you apply it? If you're prone, you're not taking a Block action next turn, right? And this assumes you only use it on AV breaks, which are easiest to get against low-AV teams, which also tend to be the teams most susceptible to spammed Stand Firm and Tackle, PO's competitor skills.

On an AV roll, it's the same cost, but the value varies by AV. Factoring out an action, PO offers the following in exchange for the TZ and skill.
AV7+MB: [(15x4.58+6x3.75)/36]-1 = (91.25/36)-1 = 1.53 actions
AV8+MB: [(10x4.58+5x3.75)/36]-1 = (64.58/36)-1 = 0.79 actions
AV7: [(15x3.75)/36]-1 = (56.25/36)-1 = 0.56 actions
AV9+MB: [(6x4.58+4x3.75)/36]-1 = (42.5/36)-1 = 0.18 actions
AV8: [(10x3.75)/36]-1 = (37.5/36)-1 = 0.04 actions
AV9: [(6x3.75)/36]-1 = (22.5/36)-1 = –0.38 actions

I love/hate going up against all-PO teams. I may get rocked on the body count, but I usually win, and sometimes I just embarrass 'em, because they can't get enough assists. A string of AV fails can negate your entire PO investment, and a set of bad PO rolls can really bite your bum. But one or two PO guys can make a huge difference.

[Carnis]

Your comparison makes piling on seem a lot less effective than it really is. Facing a 4 MB/PO orc team is a real nightmare for MANY teams (58% KO+ vs AV7, 44% KO+ vs AV8 and 31% KO+ vs AV9). This mentioned issue with going down due to wrestle + going down due to PO is a non-issue imo.

The *real* issue for me at least with Piling on is how tempting it gets to reroll a stun if you got MB ready even when you clearly should not (like say, when you are next to the ballcarrier, and that squishy bullcentaur next to him just got stunned with your natural 10 AV roll).

Also another thing about piling on is, that teams who tend to spam piling on also tend to field DPs, so they get 3 bites at the blitz-cherry (the normal MB AV/inj roll, then with PO, then with DP). Especially on the first turns of the half on offence it is really easy to get significant advantage with reckless piling on/dp, when the ball is out of reach.

Still, playing poorly 11vs6 you will lose, but it's not due to piling on and its not due to wrestle, either ;P.

[Smeborg]

Piling On is a good skill in the right circumstances, but I feel it is a bit over-rated, unless it is combined with several other skills (say several of Block, Tackle, M-Blow, Claw, J-Up, J-Naut, Grab). And even then it must be used wisely. Staying standing has its merits, not least the block that you may well get on the next turn. First turn of offense, when the ball is out of the opponent's reach, may be a good time for P-On, but this can be countered by a short kick. Fend is, I think, steadily increasing in popularity as a skill, not least as a P-On defense on the LoS.

I am not sure that a competent slayer team needs P-On, tbh. I do think that P-On is an entertaining skill, though. It increases the "spice" factor for both coaches.

All the best.