How to develop AG 5 Gutter Runners

[War-Raven]

I have two Gutter Runners that on there first skill rolled +AG. I would like to know suggestions on how to develop them from here.

Team thus far is :-

Rat Ogre - No skills, no SPP. May be a mistake but I love the Frenzy
Thrower - No skills, no SPP
2 GR's - +AG
1 GR - Block, -MV
1 GR - 3 SPP
1 Stormvermin - Guard
1 Stormvermin - 2 SPP
1 Lino - Kick
1 Lino - Block
2 Lino's - No Skills

All thoughts are welcome.

War-Raven

[Ulthuan_Express]

The two Gutter Runners with AG5 would instantly become my priority targets, so first thing is to put Block on them to protect them a little.

If you can knock the ball free, one GR can now dive in to grab the ball and pass it out of there with very little trouble at all, so Leap becomes incredibly useful. Fend would also be a good choice, to stop the Frenzy and Pile On types who will come a-hunting.

Perhaps develop one as a ball-stealer-retriever (e.g. block, leap, strip ball), and the other as a ball-receiver (e.g. catch, sprint, sure feet) would be an effective combination.

[Coach]

Block then Leap and Sure Hands is the conventional method.

The other I would get Block then Side Step as usual.

[Harry Buddha Palm]

I've got one with AG 5, block, leap, dauntless, and strip ball. He's nasty!

[RandomOracle]

I'd develop one into a blitzer (wrestle, dauntless, leap) and the other into a ball retriever (block, leap, sure hands).

[inkpwn]

I'd develop one into a blitzer (wrestle, dauntless, leap) and the other into a ball retriever (block, leap, sure hands).

A 150k blitzer with strength 2? I would just make them both ball carriers because if one goes down (likely)you still have a second nine speed wonder to do the job.

[Ullis]

I would just make them both ball carriers

Gutter Runners make great ball carriers even without any skills. So really the only decision here is to whether give them Block or Wrestle. Block helps when you're carrying the ball.

Gutter runners are ideally suited for the purpose of hitting the ball carrier. AG5 makes them much better for this role as AG5 dodging is so sweet. I agree with RandomOracle here. So:

1. Wrestle, Dauntless, Leap, Strip Ball (Horns on doubles unless you already have Dauntless)
2. Block, Sure Hands, Leap,

The first role is much more important (and Wrestle is the best skill for that role) so whichever of them gets to the second skill first gets Wrestle. Strip Ball can come as second skill if many of the opposing teams lack a Sure Hands player.

[mattgslater]

AG5 GR? My progression would be Leap, then Block.

[mrmojoz]

Most annoying skill I've dealt with on a gutter runner lately has been jump-up.

[Drool_bucket]

Block/Wrestle next. Just keep the wrestle guy where he can't be surrounded by enemy tacklezones. This keeps them alive.

Then Leap on both. You now have Slann Catchers on your Skaven team.

Finally, I do the Dauntless/Stripball on the Wrestle and Surehands on the other.

Overall, neither require a ridiculous amount of SPP on players that can't get them... at 31 you'll have them leaping and that will be nasty.

And making a GR a blitzer frees up your Storm Vermin to do what they do best, Guard/Tackle....

[Harry Buddha Palm]

Yeah, sometimes blitzers just can't get to your target and that's when you need to blitz with a gutter runner. A leaping, 5 agility gutter runner can reach almost anyone. Give him dauntless and strip ball and that ball is probably coming loose.

People talk about guttter runners dying all the time, but in my experience that just isn't so. I've played 50 games with my skaven and I've only had two gutter runners die and I had to retire one. Two of my gutter runners on my team were on my starting lineup. I don't even baby them, either. I blitz with them and leap them into cages. I play my one-turner the whole game. I'm not completely reckless with them, but I'll do what I have to do to get the ball and if that means putting a gutter runner next to an ogre, then I'll do it. Once they have block (which they should be able to get in a game or two), they become incredibly difficult to knock down and their great movement makes it easy to put them out of reach of your opponent. I've leapt my gutter runner into cages of orcs and dwarfs and chaos dwarfs and he's always come out alive. I'm sure one day his luck will run out, but when it does, I'll just build a new one.

[mattgslater]

@ Harry: I've seen it both ways. Sometimes the star GRs live forever, and sometimes they die young. The last two developed Skaven teams in our league have between them built four super GRs, and only one of them made it all the way through the season (the best one, who ended up with ST3, AG5, Wrestle, Horns, Leap). But I've seen plenty of Skaven teams that just didn't suffer a lot of turnover among the skill players.

The only thing I think is a constant among Skaven is the emphasis they tend to put on doing valuable stuff with positionals (that's actually why I dislike the team; I like outfits that are more egalitarian, like elves and orcs). Those positionals go up so randomly, and get sidetracked so easily, and the AV7 with good blocking skills and bad ST yields such grab-bag skill memory, that it's hard to extrapolate anything general about positional survivability and use from one team's experience.

Take Throwers, for instance. On a lot of Skaven teams, a Thrower is a glorified Lineman. But there's a Thrower in my league who got AG4 in game 1 and in his first nine games picked up Dodge, Safe Throw and Nerves with nothing but Comps. Outlier? Hell yeah, but every Rat team has guys like that.

[Harry Buddha Palm]

I think it has a lot to do with playstyle and how you position your guys, though some of it is just pure luck. I go through linerats like crazy, but I use them as roadblocks so they take the brunt of the beatings. My blitzers and gutter runners don't get hit as much thanks to those linerats. I still have both of my starting blitzers as well as the two gutter runners. I don't go leaping into cages all the time, just when I can grab the ball and score with it. I see a lot of people playing Skaven as a bashy team, though, and it doesn't work. I was guilty of that, too, when I first started but after a while (and many loses) I finally learned how to strike surgically with them and most importanly I learned that linerats are expendable and gutter runners are not and learned how to protect the runners, even if it means a linerat or two bites it. I'm the opposite of you in that I like having five or six superstars and a bunch of expendables, so Skaven suit me more than Elfs. Another thing that saves my gutter runners is the fact that I only use my apothecary for them. I let linerats and throwers die even if they have skills. At this point, I'd probably use it on my blitzers if I had to, since they're so skilled up, but I'm not 100% sure of that. It would probably depend on what turn it was. I hardly ever use my apothecary at all anymore, though because my gutter runners don't get hurt that much.

So, don't worry about gutter runners dying so much. Give them block as soon as possible. Keep them out of harms way as much as you can. Use linerats to protect them. Save your apothecary just for them. Do all that and they should be just as safe as anyone could hope to be on the Blood Bowl pitch. And even if one does get hurt or killed, they skill up so fast that it's not that big of a deal. Don't baby them, though or you'll lose games. Use them like they were meant to be used. You just have to learn when it's time to run through some tackle zones and blitz a guy and when it's time to run away and let the other team score.

PS: My first thrower got +ST and then got killed two games later. My second thrower lasted 32 games and had three skills and then got hit by a rock and got a -AG injury. That sucked!

[Asperon Thorn]

1. Wrestle, Dauntless, Leap, Strip Ball (Horns on doubles unless you already have Dauntless)

Unless they changed the rules, Dauntless/Horns combo is one of the best combos in the game. Especcially on a Gutter Runner. It's a 2 die block against anything.

However, not something I'd give an Ag 5 Gutter Runner.

I'd go with Block, stripball, sidestep, leap (in that order) on both.

Asperon Thorn

[The Golden Arrow]

Yes, they have changed the rules. Now horns is applied before dauntless so it has almost no combo value (except making the die roll easier).

Gutter runners really are some of the best bltzers (in the sacking sense) in the game after a few skills, use that to get at least one wrestle, dauntless, leap, tackle/strip ball (depending on league).