Help with LRB6 Khemri Offense

[nerdkingdan]

I don't want to hear anything about how the team was better before... or rehash the many posts about balance, I'm playing the team now, never played it before to be hung up such things.

As I said, I'm new to Khemri, Never played them in LRB5, spent a long time making some cool conversions and I'm trying to get into Khemri. I just can't wrap my head around how to play offense with this team or to get any star player points.

Defense I get, I can make elves struggle to get through my line, but on offense, I just don't see how to move down the line. The cage doesn't work cause I can't dodge, or hurt enough to move it down field. A loose cage fails every time cause they get to the ball carrier. I do very well till I have the ball, then any effort to move it up field helps my opponent score, by knocking the ball carrier down and running it in for a TD.

I've read your supposed to injury people, to win with Khemri, but it just isn't happening, I'm losing more players than my opponents, I've even got a enough tomb guardians injured to have failed regens. Lucky my decay rolls only have me missing games and no stat losses yet, considering my loses its only a matter of time before I'm under 100 team rating.

How do you score with this team, 2 guys with block, and a bunch of 7 armor guys means I can't win the bash. I certainly can't dodge, I'm not getting skills, and all around I'm not enjoying games.

I'm having a lot more fun with every other team I own, but I put so much work on these models I want to find a way to enjoy them.

What am I missing? I want to know how to score if I can't injury people?

Do I just have to wait till I get enough MVPS to get mighty blow.

[Greyhound]

Do I just have to wait till I get enough MVPS to get mighty blow.

I think that sums it up well. You can do that or wait for your TV to go below 1000 and have the SP to do the bashing for you.

The team is slow to build and it shines really once you've built up your monsters... but it's tier 2 or 3 so not that competitive anyway.

[nerdkingdan]

Where would I find the Tier List of teams for LRB6 I looked and can't find it.

Because I was under the impression Khemri is tier 1

EDIT:

Of course my win rate with Underworld is 80% and my Khemri win rate is, I beat the guy who just started playing blood bowl that week, rest were losses.

I found this from GalakSkyscraper on another forum

For the final BBRC Rules Review that we did to create Living Rulebook 6 in October 2009 ... the BBRC agreed to and used this during our discussion (that way you can know what was used as the actual benchmarks instead of personal opinions).

Tier 1: All teams not mentioned.
Tier 1.5: Chaos Pact, Slann, Underworld
Tier 2: Vampire
Tier 3: Halfling, Goblin, Ogre

The definitions of those tiers used by the BBRC to create LRB 6 for average winning % in a normal tabletop league were:

Tier 1: 55% to 45%
Tier 1.5: 50% to 40%
Tier 2: 45% to 35%
Tier 3: 35% to 30%

[Greyhound]

Ok what Tom says IS, so disregard my comment. I didn't think the new Khmeri was that competitive, and believed it was in the lower tier.

Mind you if Chaos is Tier 1 then it means that this "tier" regroups short and long term league. Let your team grow and see if they can pull more victory once you have 4x Tomb Guardians with Block/Mighty Blow.

I am fascinated by Khmeri because I play with lizards normally and I find a lot of similarities in some of the gameplay. Also the team seems easy to counter with 7 high ST characters and fast/agile skinks.

I don't see how you get to make a great wall of defence against Agile teams before you can take tackle though.

[Smeborg]

nerdkingdan - I have begun thinking about Khemri, as I may play them next season, which begins soon. I have not played them before. My main idea (theorybowl only - not tested) is to give them all skills which cause knockdowns and CAS (on the basis that they need to win the numbers game), then skills that deny space to the opponent. Accordingly, that would mean:

TGs get: M-Blow, Guard, S-Firm (Block, Tackle on doubles)
B-Ras get: M-Blow, Tackle, Guard, S-Firm
T-Ras get: Block, Tackle, Fend
2 Skellies get: D-Player (S-Git on subsequent doubles)
Other Skellies get: Block, Tackle, Fend (M-Blow, Guard on doubles)

Being a slow, clumsy team, P-On would be avoided (better to stay standing). Same philosophy for Wrestle (take Block instead, even on the Skellies). To re-inforce a fouling strategy, a 16-player roster suggests itself.

The idea is to treat all players (Foulers excepted) as much the same in development terms, subject to their differing skill access. It seems to me that the Thro-Ras are problem players. Although it would be nice to develop their offensive ball-handling skills (KoRet, perhaps HMP), it seems that the Thro-ras are important utility players on defense, with their MA6. You need their S-Hands on defense, too, if you are to have any chance of getting your hands on the ball.

+MA suggests itself on the B-Ras and T-Ras, +AV suggests itself on the Skellies (unsure about the TGs). [Although I'm half tempted to just take +1AV on any 6,4.] The best doubles picks on the B-Ras and T-Ras might be S-Feet, Sprint. Any player might become a "playmaker" with +1AG. Interesting mobility skill on all players is B-Tackle, but I'm not sure that's the way to go.

I hope to try out all this theory soon. The side looks like a slow-developing one by nature, so a simple plan may be best.

All the best.

[nerdkingdan]

To answer the first question, about the elves. you can use the tomb guards to block off most the field. It forces 3 dodges or a Leap + dodge, they struggle to push the TGs, Couple of 1's later I'm holding the ball. Then of course once I have it it all falls apart and the elves break the ball out of the cage and My line is compromised by me moving around the ball. Getting the ball out of my cage is easier for other teams than scoring on my defense.

I should just pick up the ball and throw it down field it would be more effective than me caging that I'm sure of.

As for the deep bench plan..

I think the only way to get a deep bench quickly with this team, is to be lucky, avoid bashing teams. or start with it... I've had 2 TGs injured in a single game against a rookie undead team with 2 mummys, made 1 regen and got lucky with the 2 injury rolls or I'd already be down to 3 TG any way. Regen fails, and you will be rolling it. I'm afraid I'll be spending all the money I had on TG replacements.

I once played a 16 skeleton team with the undead list, and it was better than my 11 khemri team with 4 tomb guard, Next league I'll try for an in between if I reset them, which I like doing as a rule.

Which would be 8 skeletons and 4 tomb guard 3 rr, or starting with less than 4, not sure either plan is good, but 11 players isn't working either.

Heck after awhile my 16 skeleton team had 7 RRs and 500,000k in the bank, several 3ag skeletons with sure hands and a better win record, can't help but wonder if for league play the 11 starting roster is wrong.

[Greyhound]

To answer the first question, about the elves. you can use the tomb guards to block off most the field. It forces 3 dodges or a Leap + dodge,

Intriguing. Each TG can cover 3 square-wide of TZ, and there are 13 squares. That leaves 1 square you can shove 2 skelettons in but that means 3+ dodge. With the dodge skill it's not impossible to overcome.

[nerdkingdan]

Intriguing. Each TG can cover 3 square-wide of TZ, and there are 13 squares. That leaves 1 square you can shove 2 skelettons in but that means 3+ dodge. With the dodge skill it's not impossible to overcome.

Lots of rolls cause turn overs, but like I said, after I get the ball and break the wall, they pop my ball carrier and score.

If he trys to get a few receivers through and what he gets by you is easily kept on its back by your other players, you also can put pressure on the back field because you got 5 players running around. The issue with it all is advancing, which I can't seem to do. Except for the time I used ithica with inducements and dumped off the ball to a tomb guard, I have not got the ball more than a few squares past the half.

If you don't start with 4 tomb guards you can't do this style of play, which is all you really have. Lose a tomb guard and your boned. However if you start a kick off outnumbered, you can count on giving away a TD. Its like either choice has a fatal flaw. Don't have the TGs or don't have the numbers

Here is what I started with.
4 TG
2 Throw-ra
1 Blitz-Ra
4 skeleton
3 RR

I'm really not sure their is a better way to start this team, maybe dropping the blitz-ra for a 12 starting roster. Either way, my team would be where it is now, well plus a couple of turn-overs that one guy with block prevented.

[Greyhound]

I sense frustration. How many games so far?

[Ulthuan_Express]

I've found that the TGs have to dominate the LOS for Khemri to work - they have to get the ST5 steamroller going, because Skeletons aren't likely to do it themselves.

I also found the problem that you struggle to get across the LOS simply because by the time you've got there with the ball and your cage, the people you flattened on the first turn have already stood up and are in position to scupper your plans. The solution to that is to keep hitting them, and be patient. If you're a shambling, ever-living automaton of the Tomb Kings, what's a few more turns standing around while you hit people?

Yes, it's possible to score in two turns with Khemri. Possible, but unlikely. I ran a Blitz-Ra down a wide zone for a TD in 2 turns, but that only worked because my opponent couldn't knock him down with the one free player, so I managed to blitz him out of there for the score.

Your starting roster is what I would go with, too. Once the Throw-Ra has the ball, I don't risk giving it to anyone else, and protect him with the 4-point cage. As the TGs start to roll downfield, they follow, being somewhat fluid on whether to charge down the left, right or centre, depending on the outcome of blocks. The remaining players either lend support to the TGs hitting, or make a nuisance of themselves protecting the cage.

[nerdkingdan]

I sense frustration. How many games so far?

I'm not frustrated, I'm bored. Like I said I had more fun with LRB5 all skeleton team with 7 rerolls, typically I use it to teach people the game, I give them humans or elves and I run all skeleton with 7 rerolls, I'll throw, dodge, hand off until I use the reroll then I play smart... its a good way to show people the game

It feels like with khemri all you can do is block a few people, hope for casualties and wait for mvps. I was hoping someone could tell me I was wrong about that, I like restarting teams, but this one is boring at the start. I'm at 5 total games with khemri LRB6, 2 practice, 3 league, so I've got 5 games with the starting team. My models are cool looking, eventually I'll get skills, but I'm disappointed about the starting team team, but I do so love the skeleton concept

Waiting to get lucky, is not a good strategy!

Your starting roster is what I would go with, too. Once the Throw-Ra has the ball, I don't risk giving it to anyone else, and protect him with the 4-point cage. As the TGs start to roll downfield, they follow, being somewhat fluid on whether to charge down the left, right or centre, depending on the outcome of blocks. The remaining players either lend support to the TGs hitting, or make a nuisance of themselves protecting the cage.

First turn they blitz into the cage from the back and get on my ball carrier, I can't dodge, I push him off and I can't move forward. I'm not removing people so they got 8 in front preventing the advance, and the 3 from the line blitzing next to my 2 ag guy, eventually the lack of block skill means I can't push enough away to reform the cage before the turn over and they got the ball.

With skills I could get block, mighty blow, guard, break tackle, fend, grab, etc... what can I do with no skills and 2 ag with this team?

[Ulthuan_Express]

First turn they blitz into the cage from the back and get on my ball carrier

So either they're rolling 5s or 6s to dodge in, or leaping, and two dice you choose blitzing you... and that's after they've dodged through and around whoever is in your wide zones?

IF that's true, it sounds like you're either hugely unlucky in your opponent's race/skill/dice choices, or your initial set-up and/or caging is to blame for that one. They shouldn't be able to blitz your ball carrier first turn, particularly from behind, without major skills and/or defensive failings.

TGs get skills from blocking, Thro-Ras from scoring, and Blitz-Ras from a combination of the two, while skeletons rely on MVPs and the occasional casualty.

[Ullis]

So either they're rolling 5s or 6s to dodge in, or leaping, and two dice you choose blitzing you... and that's after they've dodged through and around whoever is in your wide zones?

TGs get skills from blocking, Thro-Ras from scoring, and Blitz-Ras from a combination of the two, while skeletons rely on MVPs and the occasional casualty.

I'm pretty sure you have it wrong. It's enough that they mark the ball carrier. Then you have to use your turn on freeing the ball carrier from TZ's in the first place. That can easily mean that you have to block with the ball carrier which means that you can't move with him. And all this with no blocking skills so you have a risk of having to use a reroll on it and likely not even getting a knock down on the marker.

And TG's get skills from blocking veeeeerrrrryyyy slooowwwllyyy. Sure they block a lot due to ST5, but they don't have Block and the chances of hurting anyone are the same as for a normal skeleton. And blitz-ras are needed in the front lines since they have Block, so scoring with them early on is not viable.

I actually wrote a long post earlier but I seem to have pressed cancel instead of posting it. My experiences with Khemri offence have been very similar to what the op described. Well, with the expection that I have a winning record with the team against a variety of opponents (on Fumbbl's new FFB client). I think the main thing about the Khemri offence is not committing the cage too quickly, especially to either side, and partitioning the pitch, either by straight marking or then screening, with TG's. That can gives you a local superiority, even against elves, in numbers. Hard to describe but very often my offences have ended up in a break from the cage with the Thro-ra being screened by a few skeletons and the odd TG or blitz-ra. There's been a few dodges (only 25% chance of failure!) and I remember one glorious short pass that was caught too.

[Ulthuan_Express]

So either they're rolling 5s or 6s to dodge in, or leaping, and two dice you choose blitzing you... and that's after they've dodged through and around whoever is in your wide zones?

I'm pretty sure you have it wrong. It's enough that they mark the ball carrier.

Which probably means either your defensive positioning isn't good enough, or they've been able to do a lot of risky dodging to get there. And, if they're marking the ball carrier that quickly, where the hell is your cage?

[nazgob]

My assumption is that the fast teams can move around the offence, isolating pieces from the cage and achieving local superiority. I know that thats what I do. Als the rear of a khemri cage tends to be weak, with the str5 guardians on the LOS, the back is taken up with skellies.

I find khemri a much harder proposition when they go down the side of the pitch, and focus all their weight on one side. When they spread out, they tend to overstretch, particularly against humans, skaven, wood elves, etc, who are so much faster. conversely, when they clump together on one side, i can slow them down with the following formation.

-x--x--x-
-x--x--x-

but i cant stop their advance completely. with on side guarded by the touchline, they can form a double cage on the other, and allow the blitz to punch holes forward. with only one square a turn, its possible to prevent the TD, but eventually they will break armour. or find that hole thats just big enough to score.

I think my problem with Khemri is that they are so slow to develop, with the exception of the throw-ras who tend to SPP hog the touchdowns.

***Edit***

this is obviously the post of a coach who plays against khemri, not with them.