Dark Elf Skills and Purchases

[Greyhound]

I believe I know what Carnis means, although I disagree with his statement.
I think good coach will make it hard, but they can't completely prevent it. DE, like Norse are masters at surfing people out due to the built-in frenzy.

I recently played with my Orcs (who normally never get crowd surf thanks to guard, fend and Stand Firm + positioning), against a Chaos player who was set up with 2 Jugernaut (one on the Mino, one on a goat), both with Frenzy and 2 Chaos warrior with Grab.

I knew what to expect so I tried to stay clear of the sidelines, and initially I managed to fend him off, but by the end of the first half he had managed to push a blitzer out with series of chain block and blitz. Worse I had to consider switch side wasting considerable time when he started pushing my cage in the wide zone.

His tactic was to not rely on MB which he believes is too random and always a gamble, and focus on strategic crowd pushing. I still prefer bashing through my opponent for SPP, but I must agree. He has a point.

I'm not a great coach either but to constantly work around these skills is actually the main purpose of having them. You can fail all your AV breaking on a game, but as soon as the opponent moves and act in a different way to counter your frenzy/jug the skill has been useful.

I like to play with skills I don't have to roll for (stand Firm, Fend, Side Step) and I believe Jug can be one of them, you don't have to use it to see it have an influence on the game.

[RandomOracle]

Considering you have no guard, I'd absolutely take that on the blitzer. The witch could go for either MB or juggernaut. I'd probably go for MB myself, but I've never tried juggernaut.

[Oxynot]

Out of curiosity and since nobody touched the subject yet: is Juggernaut's ability to cancel the use of Wrestle only a marginal benefit or would a block witch get good mileage out of that with added knock downs? Would the league have to have much more Wrestle than on average to even consider this implication?

Never had Juggernaut on any players, so I have no clue.

[Asperon Thorn]

Witches can almost always get a crowd push, unless the opponent is going to completely give away the sides. 3 Squares in is too much room to give an elf team (And in DE's case not enough room to avoid going over the side.) so you have to plan on trying to stop that eventually.

I think that players that manage to avoid players going over the side are playing against very conservative Dark Elf Coaches. Crowd pushing is one of those Dirty Dark Elf tactics that should be done early, often, and sometimes with seemingly little short-term benefit.

That said, I'd go with MB. My witches hit every turn. Make those hits count.

Asperon Thorn

[mattgslater]

On Juggernaut vs. Wrestle, I think a lot of it depends on team mix and development strategies. I like Juggernaut, for instance, as a late skill on an Orc Blitzer, Dwarf Slayer, Chaos Beastman or Norse Berserker, not least because those teams are fairly susceptible to Wrestle games. I'm not sure I'd make a habit of blitzing Wrestlers with Dark Elves, at least not as a matter of course. If somebody in your league just spams Wrestle, that's an argument in favor, but not quite like it is for Fend or Stand Firm.

[Carnis]

Jugs vs wrestle would be a big thing, but at least in FUMBBL, the jugs cancelling wrestle isnt yet implemented properly so it's a non-issue there. The fix will be there in a month or two.

To the previous discussion about sidelines though, just a few SS players will prevent any surfplays. Mostly you see them happen, just that I really rarely see the need for jugs. Surfing is nice and great, I like it as a norse coach, but it's not a be-all-end-all strategy, where MB is random, jugs is situational.

Random kicks in a lot more than situational for me.

[mattgslater]

Yeah, I'd agree with all that. Mostly. Juggernaut is very situational. Some situational abilities are better than random ones: Tackle, for instance, applies to a very common situation, while Kick has a big impact on a situation that's guaranteed to come up every game, right at the beginning of a half. The problem with Juggernaut is that it only works when you blitz. To me that makes it an automatic 2nd-tier skill.

[Master Wang]

I'm starting to lean towards Mighty Blow for the witch and Guard for the blitzer.

I can see myself wanting Juggs eventually, but as the league is perpetual I'll probably get another chance at it with someone. If I get it on a witch in the future, I'll want it on one with Block. I see the benefit of witches with Wrestle, but want to leave that skill for some linemen as fouling on stuntyleeg, where I play at the moment, is fairly commonplace. I'll try to make a point of hitting with the MB witch every turn to maximize the effect of MB.

While I'm not savvy enough to get great mileage out of a single guarder, it's such a good skill that doesn't matter. As mentioned above, I don't have it yet so probably should take it.

Not that it matters, or is relevant in this forum, but this is another advantage that the new fumbbl client will have over BOTOCS - I believe you have to do skill selection in the post match sequence ala the rules, so it'll stop coaches procrastinating like this.

Thanks for all the comments, if anyone has any thoughts on the money, let me know.

[RandomOracle]

Not that it matters, or is relevant in this forum, but this is another advantage that the new fumbbl client will have over BOTOCS - I believe you have to do skill selection in the post match sequence ala the rules, so it'll stop coaches procrastinating like this.

You can stay in the post-match sequence until you want to play your next match, though.

[Master Wang]

Not that it matters, or is relevant in this forum, but this is another advantage that the new fumbbl client will have over BOTOCS - I believe you have to do skill selection in the post match sequence ala the rules, so it'll stop coaches procrastinating like this.

You can stay in the post-match sequence until you want to play your next match, though.

Ah well, guess I'll be procrastinating as usual if I switch over.

I had a thought about my cash - how many re-rolls do people usually run with on Dark Elves. I'm only 10K away from being able to buy a fourth, but is that overkill? I have 12 players for my next game so could risk it and then get a re-roll after. But an extra player is perhaps the more sensible option.

The more I think and read about runners, the less I think I want one.

[Asperon Thorn]

You don't have a runner?

They're awesome. I'd get at least one. (Not to mention more MA7 is always a good thing.)

As for Rerolls. . I like 4. You can operate with 3 for your entire career, sometimes not even using all of them, but 4 really helps out during that really unlucky playoff game that you just have to win. Maybe it makes more sense to induce a RR for those games. . .But those games aren't always predictable it's just safer to have it on your roster.

Asperon Thorn

Edit: Just read what you were referring to on the negative comments regarding the runner. Ignore them. The posters posting them are comparing them to throwers for other elf teams. It's not the same position. You can develop them into similar positionals, but out of the box you need to play the runner just as aggressively as the rest of the team.

[Master Wang]

As I've hardly played loads of games with Dark Elves, I'm all for being persuaded into using a runner, or even two so how do you use and develop your runners? I'm assuming you don't play to let them get hit and keep Dump Off as a last resort or am I wrong and you go with skills like Accurate, Pass and Nerves of Steel on them? In my head I can see that being a very annoying player to play against. I also picture him getting hit by someone with Mighty Blow and Piling On. The other way I see is something more balanced, maybe Dodge, Wrestle (none of my other MA7 players will get Wrestle) and Nerves of Steel. Do yours only feature of offensive drives, if they play defense, where do you hide them to avoid them being blitzed on the first turn?

[Smeborg]

As I've hardly played loads of games with Dark Elves, I'm all for being persuaded into using a runner, or even two so how do you use and develop your runners? I'm assuming you don't play to let them get hit and keep Dump Off as a last resort or am I wrong and you go with skills like Accurate, Pass and Nerves of Steel on them? In my head I can see that being a very annoying player to play against. I also picture him getting hit by someone with Mighty Blow and Piling On. The other way I see is something more balanced, maybe Dodge, Wrestle (none of my other MA7 players will get Wrestle) and Nerves of Steel. Do yours only feature of offensive drives, if they play defense, where do you hide them to avoid them being blitzed on the first turn?

I have taken 2 Runners in my second full season with DEs. I feel this is perhaps 1 too many. The first Runner (on the starting roster) was hired in order to be a Leader caddy, and he has been outstanding in this role (you get a Leader re-roll many games before you are able to afford a 3rd team re-roll, and you save precious TV). After that I gave him Dodge (for both mobility and protection), then he rolled 6+4 and I took the +1MA (to create a one-turn-score threat, although he has not yet achieved this feat, S-Hands or Block might have been better picks). The second Runner has Dodge, Sure Hands (he is the only player on the team with S-Hands). If he gets to a 3rd skill, I may give him K-Ret. After that, for both of them, the choice is between developing a true Thrower (Pass, Accurate etc.), or going for protection and ball holding ability (Block, Sidestep, Fend). As our season is ending, I won't get to test this out. But I am inclined towards the protection route.

I do not like the idea of relying on D-Off (I think I have done 2 or 3 successful Dumps in about 25 games, and as I have 3 Guards on the team, it is often a close call whether to use Dump Off or just to get Blitzed at 2-dice I choose). As an AG4 team, the DEs have little trouble scoring on their offense. Therefore I prefer to build the Runners as all-rounders that can play on defense (albeit quietly, duties being limited to screening and assisting). By late in the game with DEs, you can expect all your reserves to be on the pitch - they need to be able to look after themselves during long drives.

Overall, I find the Runners rather quiet players, their MA7 is of some use (I have gone for max MA on my team, with no Assassins but all 8 MA7 players). But their AV7 is definitely a weakness. Next time I will probably take just the 1 Runner, replacing the second with a Lineman. And I will probably go for a quiet development path: perhaps Leader, Dodge, Block, S-Hands, K-Ret, or something like that. Were it not for Leader, I might not take a Runner at all. The DEs seem to manage just fine without a true Thrower (Throwers are also of limited importance in the Pro-Elf team, albeit for different reasons).

Hope that helps.

[Asperon Thorn]

Well. . .

I think the simplest way to explain the use of the runner is to talk about dwarves. . specifically, defending against dwarves. The best way to stop a Dwarf cage from slowly plodding up the field is to try and jam it up, and keep it from progressing. If you can stall its movement you can start peeling off the layers and get to the ball carrier, however even getting to the ball carrier is secondary because dwarves really really depend on scoring every offensive possession in order to win games. The Ball carrier is pretty much stuck inside that cage whether it is moving or not because if he shoots out too early his team can't keep up. Dwarves will sometimes be able to break away and make a smaller cage up field, which is their best bet.

Dark Elves will often run their form of the cage (I have called it the spiderweb, because it sticks on players that your opponent wants to be able to move, and dodges from players that your opponent wants to hit with, ussually meaning that the more embroiled your opponent gets into the spiderweb, the less he is able to actually do what he wants.) However, sometimes that same defense that befuddles the dwarves is effective against Elves, namely the cage stalls. The runner, who should be your ball carrier, can then shoot a gap and get deep down field. Because of dump off he does't require a cage to protect the ball he just requires another body down field with him.

So the situation is, quite commonly. A big clusterf*&k in and around the middle, your runner and a potential ball carrier down field. Because you don't really need to protect the ball carrier as much it frees more of your players to set up screens and "stickyness" on the other team. Which, oddly, is far more protection for all of your players than an actual cage. If they manage to get a blitz on the runner, he just dumps it to the guy next to him, and that guy scores.

In my opinion, the most successful mindset is to think of him as your favorite fast linelf that you use to carry the ball. Treat him and protect him as such. And then when/if he gets hit remember that he has an extra surprise. Also, if you can't protect every incoming angle, try and place a guy in a position in which the runner himself is protecting him, because that is going to be your new ball carrier if the runner gets hit.

For more general usage:
Use another player to fetch the ball and give it to your runner.
Use your runner for most of the ball carry time.
For the signature, run from deep, hand off, run across mid, short pass, run for score play that Dark Elves try to set up. The runner should be the player in the middle.
I rarely score with my runner, I ussually give it to someone else at the last minute so I can spread around the SPP's.

Skill Progression:
"Option" runner. (the one that takes hits.)
Nerves of steel
Accurate
Block (or dodge)
Pass

Passing runner
Pass
Accurate
Safe throw
strong arm
etc etc develop this guy like any other thrower.

And like Smeborg said above, I really only think one is necessary.

Asperon Thorn

[Joemanji]

I think the Runner is amazing.

Here are some reasons why:

1) He is another MA7 player. DEs really love that extra point of movement.
2) He has Passing skill access. Elves love a quarterback to grab the ball after kickoff and distribute it if needs be. It saves a turn and can leave slow opposition flat footed.
3) Dump Off is a useful tool. I don't use it that often, but I can tell you it is amazing against leaping opposition like WEs, Slann or other developed Elves. You don't need to build for it, I take Accurate and Pass soon enough anyway, and that is usually enough. DO is also a good way to discourage your opponent blitzing in the first place.

So basically a faster lineman with extra skill access and an occasionally useful trick skill. What's not to love?