Looking for lizardmen help and resources.

[inkpwn]

Thinking of starting a lizardmen team in a 110k league that probibly will feature a lot of returning bash.
Can't seem to find any decent resources, has the team not but put under the microscope for this current rule set?
Has three die block done anything on them?

Anyway, I love the skinks and think the team looks like a lot of fun, currently going to be using privateer press troll bloods, kriel warriors for saurus, welps as skinks and a swamp troll as the kroxigor (slann solo).

What starting builds would you recommend? I would like the krox to help against the possibly returning bashy but it isn't a neccesity.

Tactics, skills, regular and doubles I honestly don't have the fogiest beyond defensive skills on the saurus. Anything would really help

[mepmuff]

At 110 you can get a nice build with
1 Krox (140)
6 Saurus (480)
4 skinks (240)
3 rerolls (180)
1 apo (50)
10 cash/FF/AC/CL/beermoney

If you have the time try to pick up the ball with a saurus and score with him. Let the krox do what he does best, being the best roadblock in the game.

[Long_Bomb]

I would suggest the following build:

1 x Kroxigor 140k
6 x Saurus 480k
4 x Skinks 240k
4 x Re-rolls 240k

1,100,000gc

For Lizardmen you really need all seven St 4+ players to reduce the threat to your skinks. With only four skinks you are less likely to lose one to injury early on as they can spend much of the game hiding behind the bigger guys until they are needed. You may go with an apothecary at the start if you are playing in a rough league with skilled ‘bash’ players but you will benefit from a good number of re-rolls to start as the big issue for Saurus (and the Kroxigor) is the lack of Block.

For skills I go for:

Kroxigor: Break Tackle, Guard, Stand Firm (Block)
Saurus: Block, Frenzy /Break Tackle, Mighty Blow/Tackle (Dodge)
Skinks: Side Step, Catch/Diving Tackle (Sure Hands/Block)

The Kroxigor is very good against other strength teams but against agility teams his Prehensile Tail makes him invaluable for tying down dodging Elves and Gutter Runners. With Break Tackle he can dodge into square with two tackle zones on a 3+ which makes him a great cage breaker, although Loner and Bone Head make him less reliable at this.

I like to develop Blocking and Blitzing Saurus. Both get Block to start but then I like Break Tackle and Tackle for Blitzing. For Blocking Frenzy and Mighty Blow are useful. You only want one or two Frenzy pieces but they are good as Safeties as well as near the side lines. You may want to vary the mix and go for Break Tackle and Frenzy for example but which combo you use will depend on your league. I have taken Guard in the past but it is of less use in such a high strength team than normal so again it depends on your league.

I would only try to develop a couple of offensive skinks with Side Step and Catch to help get the ball down field. I would also develop a couple of defensive skinks with Side Step and Diving Tackle to tie down the opponents ball carriers. Most Lizardmen coaches will look to cut skinks after the third skill if they don’t have a stat boost or double skill such as Block or Sure Hands, assuming you have the money to re-buy them.

[Nippy Longskar]

A few points I think worth bearing in mind with Lizzies - first general thoughts, and then specifically on O and D:

Keep your saurus and krox together! If any of your guys get isolated they are ridiculously easy to tie up, and effectively useless for the remainder of the drive. You should aim to keep a nice 'ball' or 'line' of tough players that can help each other out (both by assisting and blocking markers away to free up their team mates) and to keep your skinks safe. This is true both on O and D.

Don't leave your skinks exposed to blitzes unless absolutely necesary - this is doubly true if the potential blitzer has any of tackle, block, frenzy or St5. Also be very careful of using skinks for assists where you may end up vulnerable. For example, I would generally rather block with my Krox for 2d than move skinks in to assist to get 3d and leave them vulnerable on a bonehead/bad block result.

Foul sparingly - generally your players are too valuable on field to risk it, especially early on. The exception would be wardancers, who must be fouled whenever they are on the ground.

Be aware of stunty, but never rely on it - the games that go best always involve very few dodges. The threat of it should be your main weapon. Obviously if you get an Ag4 skink, you can go wild.

On O, try to play along a widezone and set up crowd pushes (think about where players can be blocked to in a chain of push backs) - this is your best chance to get ahead numerically against any medium to high armour team. Obviously watch out for frenzy. Your pace will let you switch to the centre if you are getting bogged down. Also bear in mind that you don't always have to form a conventional cage - screens and walls of players tend to work better and bring more strength into play. Against leapers try to predict/limit where they are going to hit you from and cover the squares the ball will scatter to. Also aim to punish leapers with crowdpushes in the following turn.

On D, I think you have 2 options - a) agressive man marking or b) passive space covering. With a) you try to force as many dodges and risky blocks as possible, hopefully inflicting cas as well. Good skills for this are Block and M blow saurus, stand firm krox, dive tackle skinks (for marking the ball carrier)

With b) you aim to stand off and deny movement to your opponent, covering all of the places where he could move his cage next turn with TZs. Good skills for this are break tackle saurus, juggs krox (to blitz away from markers, more reliable than BT) and SS skinks (although DT also works well here).

I also think a frenzy saurus is a very nice tool to have for lots of situations, although block or juggs are definately required. I wouldn't ever take more than one frenzier.

Just a few ideas from me - good luck in your league!

[inkpwn]

@ longbomb


No apothecary at start? Are you sure?

[Joemanji]

You can use an APO once. Cost to replace a dead Skink is 60K, or Saurus 80K. Cost to buy a 4th reroll (which you absolutely need) is 120K. You have no Block and will take a long time to get any. Just don't let the Krox die.

[mattgslater]

4x Re-Roll is 240k, no? 180k only buys 3.

[Greyhound]

I play primarily Lizardmen with some success although I wouldn't call myself an expert.

I believe in 4 RR for league and 3RR for tournaments, right from the start. There are potentially 7 beautiful blocks to make with all that strength and it take Aggggggees to get block on all 6 Saurus. I often use all my RR.
If I'm lucky I'll use them to reroll the defender stumbles on dodge player by turn 5 or 6. If I burnt through them at the start... well that's why they're here.

I don't protect my skinks much... unless they get stats/doubles. I burn them. My opponents are always trying to block them and that's part of the game, I use them as bait. I usually play with 6 loosing probably one every other game.

I also play in a league which most teams were already ahead of me, so I had to use inducements quiet a bit. The best one I found for this team is Hemlock (against AV7). For 170k you get a blodge skink with jump up/stab and side step. Loner doesn't actually hinders him much since stab is safe, jump up can be failed with no consequences, and dodge comes with its own reroll. I love this guy.

I use Break Tackle a lot. I even took it as a first skill on my second saurus. This links back my 4 RR philosophy, I take risk in the first turns and if I start burning too many RR on failed dodge I'll start cooling down on break tackle.

This is the link to my team:
http://melbourne.bloodbowlleague.com/de ... p=ro&t=hex

Notice that one of my saurus has lost AV in the first game, and I stuck to him. I gave him break tackle and I use him a sweeper. If I had to start again I'd do the same. Don't buy an apo at the start, not until you have skilled saurus or sure hands skink or whatever, I was facing guard/claw chaos dwarf on my very first game and it's as bad as it got.

I have played several teams of lizzies online and to me there are two kind of lizardmen team:
1) the ones that get MVP on the saurus (they're great! 9 out of 10 this season I love it)
2) the ones that get MVP on the skinks (they're crap)

edit: I started also at 110k (I was catching up in the league which already started)
4 RR 240
6 Saurus 480
6 skinks 360
20k banked
----------------
1100

I levelled up a sure hand right from the start, so Apo first
then a long long long long wait for my Krox (I induced a Kroxigor mercenary a few times)
then my Krox got MNG and I had the cash to replace him so I fire his 0SPP ass and picked a new one to help me in the finals.

[Greyhound]

Also note that people have this idea that skinks will die often... they don't. Stunty actually protects them by removing them from the pitch a lot faster, but technically they die or get serious injuries as much as amazons do (before they get block).

I can't answer your poll by the way, I tried once an all-skink team and they were fun but not so good, I really don't look after my little blue guys either and I save my apo for the big lizzies.
I really think that more than any other team it's the "whole" team that I love.
I don't mind loosing skinks so much and I'll rarely use the apo on them, usually saving it for my saurus with SPPs... so if I had to pick it would be the saurus winning my vote.

[Carnis]

Lizzies are the team that is most hurt by Claw & DP of the current ruleset. The ref is so slacky nowdays, most teams can always afford to foul any lizard. Fouling saurii? Great, potentially one ST4 off the pitch permanently! Fouling skinks? Great, have an extra +1 to go with your DP .

Also Claw/MB really really really hurts the saurii (because, there is no saurus reserve), and playing all skinky will get very dull against block tackle or block/frenzy very quickly. I actually got my first cleared pitch playing against Lizardmen, which I think is not a co-incidence.

[Greyhound]

Amen to that, which is why I break tackle early, it's the only defence (weak I know) as most claw teams can be overrun (ignoring skavens for a minute).

Against claw my tactic is really lame - I shut my eyes and press on the accelerator: stunty dodge repetitively, skinks used as assist everywhere and go for the score or 2 dice against the ball carrier. Hell if I'm going to go down I'll try to take someone with me.

Carnis nailed it, most teams suffering from claw will have similar problems to the lizzies, to a certain extend. Everyone has positional limitation and once your 4 blitzers are down, they're down.
But Lizzies have a hug gap between ST4 and St2-stunty, whereas most other teams have ST4->ST3 or ST3->ST3 replacements. I believe Ogres are an extreme of Lizzies and will suffer equally if the claw is on a ST5 piece (or ST6 with a blitzing mino)

Overall though if your SPP are on the Saurus and not on the Skinks you may survive. If the SPP curve favour the big guys by the time your opponent has Block/Claw/MB you are either:
1) the underdog and can use inducement to help you out
2) same TV and your concentration of SPP on ST4 players should reduce the amount of 2 dice block you suffer.

If you have your SPP on the skinks you're dead.

One more note: AG4 skinks. Absolutely essential at high level. If you have 2 or 3, you'll win many many games.

any succesful coach managed to bring Lizardmen to the 2000+ TV?
Any link to the team and an idea of the league where this happened? (Was there a lot of tackle and claws?)

[Smurf]

I like them for their apparent weakness, the skinks.

A standard line up would see 7 non skink positions and 4 skinks.

Beware of tackle, it spells doom for you, oh and mighty blow, piling on etc.

If you are going to intercept, always use a non skink as they need the points.

[Long_Bomb]

@Arthur: Originally I was going to suggest you take an Apothecary, which is why my original roster had the re-rolls listed as 180 rather than 240, but I don't think there is a need for one unless you think you are likely to get hammered in your first few games. I would be fairly happy that in a starting league I could protect my skinks and my Av 9 would protect the rest of the team for the first couple of games. As you are new to the team and in a league with a number of good players you may want to sacrifice the speed of your teams development in order to add some saftey.

[Smeborg]

arthurinkpen - please be aware that a standard tactic when playing against Lizzies is to attack the Skinks. If the Lizzies start a drive with (say) 4 or 5 Skinks, the opponent will try and reduce their numbers to the point that ball movement becomes difficult (all the remaining players being AG1). There is no need to be paranoid about this tactic, but it would appear to pay to not expose Skinks to direct attack unnecessarily.

Hope that helps.

[Long_Bomb]

I know alot of people will plan to Blitz a skink per turn, but in all of my games I have never had all my skinks removed from the pitch and I can't recall a game where I have removed all my opponents skinks from the pitch either. The real advantage of hitting skinks is getting a numerical advantage on the pitch and further limiting the options to move the ball. They do need some protection but with dodge they will usually live through the game.