How should I develop a MA10 Wardancer?

[Carnis]

Smeborg, can you come up with a single diagram for your supposedly common example of Joe's formations helping the OTTer, though?

Hi,

sorry if I´m asking some stupid stuff, but how does Grab on the treeman and Side Step on the Wardancer improve the chance of a OTT? I don´t find the point. Can anyone help?

Thanks.

If not using a blitz as the opener, the treeman can use 3die grab to place the to-be-chainpushed target to a position, where from it can be pushed towards the OTTer. I think it's really marginal though, and with a MA10 player I'd rather take the blitz-opener and use the first push to get the needed advance.

Sidestep helps in letting the chainpushed OTTer choose which square he gets pushed, allowing for more than one kind of OTT-scheme and also enabling him to evade TZs for easier catching/dodging if need be.

[sunnyside]

Hi,

sorry if I´m asking some stupid stuff, but how does Grab on the treeman and Side Step on the Wardancer improve the chance of a OTT? I don´t find the point. Can anyone help?

Thanks.

Carnis may be assuming you have knowledge you may not have. Matt once went to the effort of making up some actual diagrams for grab/chainpush stuff, we should probably get that sticked somewhere.

However all that stuff can potentially be spoiled by some of the closer in setups that were posted in this thread.

I think I'd suggest just going with sprint on the wardancer, which allows for a much more straightforward one turn touchdown option.

Additionally one aspect of this guy is his threat radius. Opponents will have to respect where he could get to. This means you'd get results from sprint on defense without actually ever having to use it. And if they don't respect it, than, well, just use it and hit that ball carrier.

On that note I wouldn't bother with strip ball. Sure hands is far too common in perpetual, and you'll have a second wardancer. If they aren't rolling stat bonuses they can handle the in your face stuff and suck up getting gangbanged by the other team.

[mattgslater]

However all that stuff can potentially be spoiled by some of the closer in setups that were posted in this thread.

That just makes you game harder, or maybe stops it if the elves are down men and can't get in enough (3d) chains. It's not even any more blocks to get two guys into position than it is to drive one guy two squares downfield, since the MA10 guy only needs to be pushed once. The only guaranteed way to stop it is with SF/SS across the LOS, and SF can be countered (albeit adding a die roll) with a Leaping Juggernaut. You can make it harder with ST4 (to prevent 3d hits) or FA/DP.

Hmmm... If you run a left-hand 321 line, then spread a 4-wide double screen behind them, you have guys in columns L6, L3, 0, R3. If you're chainpushing to the open (right) side, you can easily drive your man into the zero column, and maybe into R1. Moving him diagonally, you hit the second level's TZs in the R1 or R2 columns. If the defenders go one more square back (3 instead of 2), the WD's diagonal movement still won't get him clear of the 3-tech midfielder. A Stand Firm Big Guy will hold that edge spot nicely. How hard is it to chainpush into the R2 column against a 321 line? I'm to lazy to work it out right now.

[Smeborg]

Smeborg, can you come up with a single diagram for your supposedly common example of Joe's formations helping the OTTer, though?

Sorry, I'm not into producing proper quality diagrams. Joe himself admits that one of his formations is of little use against Grab or Frenzy. The principle is not especially dependent on formation, it is dependent on there being one or more defensive players somewhere behind the LoS. The defensive player can either simply be used in situ as a convenient filler of a square (to help the scorer advance), or he can himself be pushed to where he helps the offense (2 squares if combined with Frenzy).

If you search, you will find diagrams for theoretical one-turn-scores by such teams as Norse, CDs and Dwarfs. These are reliant on incorrect set-ups by the defender, IIRC.

[Smeborg]

The only guaranteed way to stop it is with SF/SS across the LOS, and SF can be countered (albeit adding a die roll) with a Leaping Juggernaut.

A slight word of caution. Sidestep can be negated by Grab, or by ensuring that the Sidestepper has only one square to move to. I'm not aware of any guaranteed defense against a one-turn-score, at least in theory. We are just talking about turning the odds from "longshot" to "astronomical" (or "never achieved in practice" if you prefer).

All the best.

[mattgslater]

Yeah, a Wardancer or other 3+ Leaper on a team with a 1TTD game, with Grab and Juggernaut would do the trick... using your blitz, with 2/3 to pass. You need that blitz later in the play. I've never heard of such a player. So yeah, Side Step or Stand Firm across the line is pretty much enough to ensure you won't get 1TTD'ed on with Grab.

[Aliboon]

Well thanks all, lots of food for thought there...

Unless I'm missing something, couldn't a tree with grabernaut do the blitz to push a player back into my half rather than a leaping grabernaut player?

As for my wardancer, I think side-step first for survivability and to help the 1TT (I don't like sprint, side-step just seems to offer so much more).

Then fend I reckon, again for survivability (not a skill I've chosen before, but it'd be a sickener if he got killed by a PO/frenzy player).

If he gets a 5th skill, then I think depending on how the rest of the team has developed, I'll probably go tackle or shadowing.

[Demagoge]

Hi Carnis,
hi Sunnyside,

thanks for the explanation. I have understood it, but it seems to me a lot of Theory Bowl. I think I´m quiet happy, that I don´t play any 1TTD-Temas.

[mattgslater]

Well thanks all, lots of food for thought there...

Unless I'm missing something, couldn't a tree with grabernaut do the blitz to push a player back into my half rather than a leaping grabernaut player?

I guess that's really about how the backfield is set up. Seeing Grab/Juggernaut on one player, you can support your all-SS line with one-back midfielders. I guess a Tree with Break Tackle can get in on the same odds as a Leaping WD, but that's three skills, two of which would be better-spent on Guard and Multiblock.

[Aliboon]

I guess that's really about how the backfield is set up. Seeing Grab/Juggernaut on one player, you can support your all-SS line with one-back midfielders. I guess a Tree with Break Tackle can get in on the same odds as a Leaping WD, but that's three skills, two of which would be better-spent on Guard and Multiblock.

I still don't see why tbh, I need pictures! I think the tree would still get a 2d somewhere along the front line?

(I'm still thinking about about having a Ma10 player who just needs to be 1 sq inside the ops half).

[mattgslater]

Yeah, but to push into your half of the backfield, you either need to be behind the defender or to get all his liberties blocked off. If you just Grab the SS'er, you'll push him normally. You have to push him with Grab so that he has no liberties.

[TuernRedvenom]

Am I really the only one that thinks a MA 10 Wardancer with Frenzy would be pretty great?

[mattgslater]

No, you're not. I'd consider that at 51 SPP... after SS.