Chaos Dwarf or Pro Elves?

[Pestimist]

background check:
Going into the third season of our league and everyone is starting fresh again, 5 possibly 7 teams for this season. So far i have played Norse(7-4-4 record and won season 1 with them) then 2nd season i played Halflings(4-2-2 record with them, season ended up being cancelled for many reasons) so anyways we got some new coaches for this season and had a couple departing ones. decided everyone would start fresh and i like changing it up.

now to the question, I'm between which team to use this upcoming season. In the first season i was stuck between skaven and Norse eventually chose Norse as my opponents were(Chaos, Orc, Dark Elf, Wood Elf, Lizardmen)

This time I'm stuck between two very different teams with different styles Pro Elves and Chaos Dwarves.
I have yet to play test either team i plan to this weekend tho. I have played Chaos Dwarves only in Dungeon Bowl, which i have won in both instances, but obviously Dungeon Bowl is quite a different animal

As for my opponents, so far it looks like Vampires, Chaos, Skaven, a bash team(possibly CD or Undead), and 1 or 2 more TBD teams.

So its either the Masters of Madness or The Aerial Aces

I'll probably have a better feeling after this weekend but i would like some input as well, I believe it wont be too long of a season something like 10 or 12 games plus playoffs.

Thanks in advance for your input.

[Ulthuan_Express]

I'm guessing you picked Norse the first time to keep up with the relative Bash of Orcs, Chaos and Lizardmen, with the idea of pummeling the two Elf teams, yes? If that's the case, I'd say this season (even with the two undecided teams), go for Pro Elves for a change up, so you can outmaneuver everyone.

[dwbailey]

I am playing Chaos Dwarves in my current league and love them, though that could be because of my STR6 Minotaur and 2 Mighty Blow/Claw Blockers, and I am leaning heavily towards playing Pro elves next season. You are right in that they are at completely opposite ends of the spectrum. Having Played AV7 Norse and Flings, I would think that you are ok with the fact that playing the elves, especially before you develop them to Blodgers, means you will suffer high casualties early on. It really depends on what you are looking to do. The CD are one of the most resilient grind it out teams in the game but not great with the ball. The elves are masters of ball handling but with only 2 players with AV8 and nobody who starts with dodge, one of the least resilient. Both teams could be competitive against the teams you mentioned so I would decide based on the style you want to play and what you think would be the most fun.

[Smurf]

Pro are good. Nos is great.

Depends on how hard you play elves, which doesn't mean hitting all the time.

Catchers - dodge/passblock/leap for 2.

Try and keep 2 on the pitch... a coach out our club played with 4, IMO was OTT.

Blitzers, need dodge and you have a proto wardancer on your hands. Then take tackle, then leap.

Thrower - first skill Safe throw, then accurate, surefeet.
2nd Throw - i say kick- it's unconventional

2 offensive catchers, dodge, surefeet, fend, sprint, sidestep etc

Line: Load up on dodge and wrestle, you may need a few guys with dauntless too.


Elves: It's all about ball control, yours and your opponents.

[Carnis]

Depends on how hard you play elves, which doesn't mean hitting all the time.

Catchers - dodge/passblock/leap for 2.

2 offensive catchers, dodge, surefeet, fend, sprint, sidestep etc

[Pestimist]

I'm guessing you picked Norse the first time to keep up with the relative Bash of Orcs, Chaos and Lizardmen, with the idea of pummeling the two Elf teams, yes? If that's the case, I'd say this season (even with the two undecided teams), go for Pro Elves for a change up, so you can outmaneuver everyone.

Ya that was the basic idea, i was the best defensive team in the league that season by only allowing 13 TD's in 15 games while putting up 20 TD's and was second in cas 25 with 1 less then the leader. funny part was in 8 games with my halflings i had 23 casualties. 21 against.

The more i think about it the more i'm leaning towards Pro Elves just for the change of style, because all my games tend to be 2-1 highest scoring game ive won is like 3-1/ 3-0

i think ill be starting with

2 Blitzers
2 Catchers
1 Thrower
6 Lineman
3 rerolls

i was also thinkings dodge/ diving tackle for my blitzers

wrestle dodge strip ball for one of my catchers

[sunnyside]

I'd say go pro elves. Judging by your halfling team you aren't out to win at all costs and you're probably interested in having this season not get cancelled.

Not only are pro elves fun to play, but they're also fun to play against. Even when you lose to pro elves on the scoreboard, most teams will get to walk away with some CAS SPP and their team intact.

In the hands of a coach much better and more experienced than their competition, Chaos Dwarves are one of those teams that are good at getting people to conceed the game...or your league. Not that people tend to admit something like that outright. They may smile and shake your hand after the game...but they'll be "busy" next week, and eventually the league is cancelled "for many reasons"

[mattgslater]

I like both teams quite a lot. Can't go wrong. But given your circumstances, I'm with the majority: Pro Elves.

[Smeborg]

Pestimist - I found Pro-Elves to be very powerful. With AG4 and NoS, their offense is well-nigh unstoppable. They have one of the best defenses in the game, too. I developed all the Catchers as ball-hunting Blitzers: Dodge, Wrestle, Tackle. Once the ball bounces, it is magnetically attracted to the Catchers with their AG4/Catch/NoS. Once the team gets some hyper-mobile Guard on the Linos and Blitzers, they can "out-Guard" bash teams in the scrum when they need to. I am an experienced coach, I actually stopped playing Pro-Elves in leagues because I found them "too good" (insufficiently challenging, if you prefer). But I like the sporting style in which they play (win first, die later).

Although the CD defense is quite good, it is not as good as the PEs, and CDs rely essentially on the 2-1 grind against many teams. Once they have a sprinkling of Claw+M-Blow, they start to do a lot of damage. You need to consider the effect of this on your league in the context of coaching experience. Will it be as a valuable corrective to the AV9 teams, or will it deter coaches from playing against this team? The CDs pose a number of interesting development questions which I find interesting and challenging. I have found CD games are often close in results terms.

Hope that helps.

[mattgslater]

My Pro Elf track is totally banned in the league I play in. Okay, not banned, but if anyone plays Pro Elves and takes SS linos, everyone else rolls their eyes.

2/2/1 positionals, 6 linos, 3RRs.
Purchases: Apoth, (replacement Blitzers), Catcher, Catcher, (replacement Catchers, Throwers and Linos), Thrower. Final TV: 1.32M+FF+improvements.

Work hard to skill linos. If you recover the ball with a lino and have a TRR, throw it to a Catcher (even if you could hand off), and have him hand off to a lino to score. If you don't have a TRR, throw it to a Catcher anyway. If you don't get +ST or Guard, and you already have a kicker, each lino gets Side Step. This is Job One. Between 3x SS Linos and your two Blitzers on the wings, this team's inverted Zig is very hard to break in on. After #4, Linos without Guard are reserves. If they skill, they still get SS. Maybe one can be a specialist, going for, say, Wrackle or Wrenzy, or Dirty Git. Otherwise, the tracks are Kick-Wrestle-(choice) and SS-(Dodge or Wrestle*)-(Block or Wrestle or Dodge).

Catchers should all get Dodge by 16 SPP, and most should also get Block or Wrestle by 31. Earlier is okay, too. That leaves room for one toolbox skill or funky improvement, or maybe one of each. I like Leap or . The Catchers will improve just because sometimes you gotta go to THE GUY, you know? Even so, if you're doing it right they make a lot of receptions and handoffs, functioning as a conduit to improve your linos, grabbing what they need on the way. Your Catchers will be your TD leaders by default, but you should spread the love around the whole eleven! All stat increases rock, and doubles can be used on Passing skills if you like. It's fun to build a Catcher and a Thrower to play in tandem.

You have more leeway with Blitzers. You can make them hunters or bog-downs. There are so many good skill options on any roll that you just can't go wrong. Tackle, Dodge, and Frenzy seem the most obvious #1 skills. For doubles, Guard or Mighty Blow, or if you already have some Guard, perhaps Grab. (What a wonderful 1TTD game that would be!) I would ignore a 10 on the first roll or two, but if I got +AV at 31 or more that would be welcome.

Between the two Throwers or a Thrower and a Catcher, you have a perfect Ace backfield. Get a rookie Catcher or a Thrower-as-Passer (Acc, Safe Throw, Dodge), and you can put him at the midpoint of the half, at centerfield, in the +6 row. Three rows in front of him (+3), just outside the blitz line, put a Thrower with Sure Hands and either Acc or KOR as his first two skills (before Blodging him up if he lives that long). You can actually use anybody for this, but it doesn't hurt to improve his odds. Another way to improve the odds is to have a guy in/near each WZ, ready to get a QP if the ball goes wild, leaving you with 7 men to commit to the rest of the gameplan. If your retriever has SH and Accurate, you can actually go without this, and instead SP to just one Catcher at centerfield+1 or +2, ready to drop back and play the Ace role. This lets you go downfield with as many threats as possible, build a deep structure. With 8 guys to commit to the LOS, you can overwhelm other light teams and play almost bashy partitioning games, except to a different end (containment to stall or score, and to avoid injury). The best argument for the Thrower as Ace is that he can take Accurate and Safe Throw, so Thrower over Catcher isn't a no-brainer for Pro Elf Aces like it is for High Elves. Catch and MA8 are nice to have.

* Wrestle is the #2 on Linos in dwarfy formats (at least 1/3 Dwarfs/CDs/Norse). If you expect to face no more than 1/4 Dwarf/CD/Norse teams, Dodge wins. If it's between the two, it's a matter of taste. Be consistent.

[Pestimist]

Playing tomorrow morning with a few ppl for some friendly pre season matches tomorrow and im pretty much convinced im going with Pro Elves, sound like alot of fun and if will be a nice change of pace to have a high flying offense to the regular 2-1 grind it out.

I think everyone is right, in the fact that i dont want to deter any coaches by crunching them with CD, I'm probably the second most experienced coach in our league next to the commissioner. (basically the assistant commish) So i want it to be fun for the rest even if it means having my elves getting beat to a pulp on occasion. I'm use to low TV anyhow AV9 is just not my style

Thanks for the all the advice

i never thought to take side step first on my Linos always considered Dodge first then either SS or block/wrestle

[mattgslater]

i never thought to take side step first on my Linos always considered Dodge first then either SS or block/wrestle

As LOS survival skills go, Dodge and SS are pretty comparable (3/4 or 5/9 to knock down a SS'er on one block, 85/108 or 209/432 to knock down a Dodger on an average of 2 blocks; a gain of 1/27 in favor of SS against Block and about twice that much in favor of Dodge against a rookie). SS prevents chains and locks, while Dodge turns pows into pushes. Dodge is slightly better for mobility (only slightly; a locked Dodge player gets his 3+/2+ on the same odds as a free SS'er dodging on a 2+... unless the SS'er has a TRR, in which case SS is better) but slightly inferior for range and counterblocking (SS gets your guy into the clear to set up 2d hits more easily, or means that pushes put you in the direction of choice). None of this is so large as to differentiate one skill from the other.

The major edge of Dodge on the LOS is the large chunk (up to 25%) of a "wasted" action (okay, not wasted, as a push is usually a plus), or the commitment of a Tackler to the LOS. Neither of these is huge, but the wasted action can really make a difference sometimes. In the open field, Dodge often has an advantage over SS. Dodge players are better big-guy markers, as they're less likely to suffer AV rolls with Mighty Blow. Spam Dodge is also nice because it puts Tackle hunters in a bind, though it also ensures they'll get to use their skills. If you get man-up, Dodge is also better than SS for keeping your guys alive. Though if you're man-up with Pro Elves, you've probably won.

SS has slightly more offensive utility, as having a ton of it lets you make broader formations. SS is better for locking teams out, which isn't as important for Pro Elves as it is for slow teams, but sure helps avoiding getting partitioned. SS is more disruptive against O strategies; particularly it's lethal against OSPT and shuts down O-line chainpush gimmicks like extra blocks and OTS. It's also good against foul-happy teams, killing assists. Also, while there are two races that spam Tackle, and all non-Stunty teams pick up some eventually, spam Grab is unheard-of, and many team races never get any at all. In space, though Dodge may be a little better, SS does still force lost actions on assists, prevent chains and that sort of thing.

So for an elf lino, there are relative merits to both that make them comparable. But since both are good spam skills and you start with 2x SS already, that tips the scales significantly. It's much harder for Dark or High Elves to build into such a good net, though maybe a bit easier to sustain it once built.

[Pestimist]

Played my first match today. turns out the guy i thought was taking Chaos chose Skaven and the Skaven coach went with Amazon.

My first game was against Vampires though

he won fame and the decided to recieve. I was able to hold him off and knock the ball loose and eventually score on turn 7 to take the 1-0
second half i made it 2-0 on turn 3 making a nice play by picking up the ball in 3 tackle zones then passing it to an open catcher in the endzone Vamp coach didnt expect it.

he started to hit back and i lost quite a few to KO and after my second TD one of my blitzers got casualtied by a Rock.(only badly hurt)

i was able to get 1 cas with said blitzer before he got hurt tho, i was almost able to hold him off but he scored on turn 8 to make it a 2-1 final for me

i had 1 catcher with 2 TD's the other had 2 completions. 1 blitzer with a cas, and then the thrower and 1 lino each had a completion as well and MVP went to a rookie lino. also made 60k in winnings going towards my apo.

overall not a bad game.