Hand-off and set-up rules questions

Hox-ii · Post by **Hox-ii** » Wed Jan 29, 2003 9:35 pm

My wording was pretty bad in a few of my previous posts, but I do still think I have some sort of point. I understand that the ball lands in the 3rd scatter square and that it doesn't "bounce" three time. Now, at this time, since it's landing, should it bounce once more?

The ball touching the ground has absolustly nothing to so with it being a turnover.

I disagree with this. As I stated before, the wording in the LRB can be interpreted both ways. It states that "The ball is passed and not caught by a player from the moving team..." Please, give me your interpretation of this rule. To me, that sounds like if the PASS is not caught, then a turnover occurs. If a pass is dropped by a receiver and then bounces, or never even touches a player and bounces against the pitch, then the pass itself was not caught. If a player catches the bouncing ball, the player only caught a ball that was already bouncing; it should not be classified as catching a pass.

Obviously, passes and handoffs are going to be a tad more dangerous in this fashion. But isn't that the point of the entire turnover rule?

Joaquim · Post by **Joaquim** » Wed Jan 29, 2003 10:59 pm

Actually it doesn't say the Pass, it says: "If the ball isn’t caught by a player from the moving team, a turnover takes place and the moving team’s turn ends."

The Pass "has absolustly nothing to so with it being a turnover." ...

Actually that was because of things like that Pass/Ball that I stoped studying laws...

Milo · Post by **Milo** » Wed Jan 29, 2003 11:11 pm

Hox-ii wrote:The LRB really should have it's passing section updated on what the 3 scatter rolls represent when a pass is inaccurate. I've always assumed that those three scatter rolls determines just how inaccurate the throw is - the ball never bounces on these rolls, it's just determining where the ball will land. Therefore, an inaccurate pass can clearly still be caught by a player on your team, as long as they are where the inaccurate throw lands. However, if this ball lands in an unoccupied square and BOUNCES to one of the moving team's players, a turnover should occur.

This is, essentially, what the rules state. The three scatters represent the ball arriving in a square different than intended. The ball does not actually land in the first two scattered squares. If a player from the moving team happens to be in the square that the ball arrives in, and manages to catch the ball, it does not cause a turnover. If the ball lands in an empty square or if the ball is not caught by the player in the square it lands in, it will cause a turnover.

Deathwing · Post by **Deathwing** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 12:17 am

Milo wrote:
This is, essentially, what the rules state. The three scatters represent the ball arriving in a square different than intended. The ball does not actually land in the first two scattered squares. If a player from the moving team happens to be in the square that the ball arrives in, and manages to catch the ball, it does not cause a turnover. If the ball lands in an empty square or if the ball is not caught by the player in the square it lands in, it will cause a turnover.

Lands as opposed to comes to rest?
That is contary to the way I've been given to understand the rules. AFAIK, the ball can even go out of bounds, be thrown back in, bounce and scatter to one of your players and a turnover does not take place.
In effect, the ball has to come to rest not in your possession for a failed pass to cause a turnover. I'm almost certain this has come from BBRC sources.
Edit: It's actually written in the LRB, quote below.

Hox-ii · Post by **Hox-ii** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 5:02 am

Joaquim wrote:Actually it doesn't say the Pass, it says: "If the ball isn’t caught by a player from the moving team, a turnover takes place and the moving team’s turn ends."

The Pass "has absolustly nothing to so with it being a turnover." ...

I always have the LRB open when I quote it, and I quote it word for word. On page 8, rule 3 in the Turnovers section, it specifically says pass. I'm just going from what the LRB says; I interpret straight from the LRB, and nothing else.

I will agree, however, that this seems like a job better suited for lawyers. I hate interpreting rules like this, and I don't mean to be a stink, but when the rules say something, I believe the rules should be followed, even if the BBRC says otherwise. The rules were put in place for a reason, and I will follow them until they are changed.

Deathwing · Post by **Deathwing** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 9:41 am

LRB p.14:
"TURNOVERS
If the ball isn't caught by a player on the moving team, a turnover takes place and the moving team's turn ends. The turnover does not take place until the ball finally comes to rest. This means that if the ball misses the target but is still caught by a player from the moving team, then a turnover does not take place. The ball could even scatter out of bounds, be thrown back into an empty square, and as long as it was caught by a player from the moving team then the turnover would be avoided!"

Pretty clear IMO.

Munkey · Post by **Munkey** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 1:47 pm

I have always played this rule as the LRB states.

I do however prefer Hox-ii's interpretation as it seems easier to understand (although maybe harder to explain initially) and I would say that it is an excellent house rule but definately not whats in the LRB.

On the subject of diving catch all I was saying was that sometimes the intended reciver can still catch an inaccurate pass, and that with this skill this is reasonably likely.

Milo · Post by **Milo** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 3:41 pm

Deathwing wrote:LRB p.14:
"TURNOVERS
If the ball isn't caught by a player on the moving team, a turnover takes place and the moving team's turn ends. The turnover does not take place until the ball finally comes to rest. This means that if the ball misses the target but is still caught by a player from the moving team, then a turnover does not take place. The ball could even scatter out of bounds, be thrown back into an empty square, and as long as it was caught by a player from the moving team then the turnover would be avoided!"

Pretty clear IMO.

There is room for misinterpretation, I admit, in "comes to rest". Note that "scatter" is still different from "bounce". A bounce is an automatic reaction to the ball being thrown (by crowd or player) or kicked to an empty square, whereas scatter is part of the thrown pass simply being inaccurate. In other words, scatter happens while the ball is still in midair, but a bounce only occurs when the ball hits the ground.

Naturally, Deathwing and Hox-ii are right about the correct rules interpretation -- as written, the rules do not cause a Turnover until the ball finally stops, including bounces. However, I think this is just another of the little rules loopholes we're trying to remove, and I personally think that a turnover should occur if the ball touches the ground on an inaccurate pass.

Does that make sense to everyone?

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 3:56 pm

Yer milo thats always the way i thought it should work. Seemed silly to me that it wasn't a turnover if it had hit the ground at some point.

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 4:03 pm

Milo wrote:I personally think that a turnover should occur if the ball touches the ground on an inaccurate pass.

Does that make sense to everyone?

It makes sense but the rules are simpler as they are. Just cleaning up the text would help.

e.g. "A pass is a turnover if the pass is fumbled or does not end up possession of one of your players".

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 9:12 pm

Leave it as it is.

I always find it funny when a player throws a pass, only for it to go OOB and be thrown back to him by the crowd.

And before anyone says this isn't very likely, it happened to my thrower twice in a 12 game season

Hox-ii · Post by **Hox-ii** » Sat Feb 01, 2003 11:22 pm

Allright, I will concede my fight... I totally forgot there was a SECOND section on turnovers, other than the one earlier in the book. Silly me to always refer to the LRB for help!

Again, I apologize if I caused anyone a problem. The league I play in uses the method that I described in the ruling of turnovers, but I realize that is not the way the LRB does things. I do believe there have only been a few instances where this rule has actually had to be used, so it's not a drastic change in rules, and in my opinion, makes passing/catching a little more hazardous for the offensive team. However, I am very undecided on if that's a good thing or not.

Munkey · Post by **Munkey** » Sun Feb 02, 2003 12:05 am

Personally I would rather see this changed. I don't see that it is that difficult to have the turnover occur if the ball is not caught after scattering.

Then the bounce would happen as it always does when a ball is dropped.

In my opinion this is a more intuitive ruling and avoids some occasionally silly results.