Amazon Playbook - feedback wanted

[plasmoid]

Amazon Playbook
By Alster

Overview

Amazon’s are probably the most disliked team in Bloodbowl. Haters will cite their poor “cookie cutter” design, easy universal access to the best skill combo in the game (blodge) and that supposedly playing games against them is like “paper, scissors, stone” (insert your home country’s equivalent game here...) in that they “always” win against some teams and “always” lose against others and that their only advantage in the game is negated by another skill. But they main reason is that the haters probably lose to them more often than they think they should.

Every coin has its flipside, as every Bloodbowl team has its weaknesses. Let us look at the lesser aspects of Amazons: Low AV, average MA, AG and ST. No player is faster than MA6, no player has an AG or ST of more than 3 (indeed the only team in all of Bloodbowl where this is so). The “cookie cutter” stat of all their players is 6337, completely average. Indeed the uniformity of their statline is what makes them unique!

Now they are much more than a team of hobgoblins for one reason. Universal dodge. This gives them a pretty unique playstyle too. They lack the agility of elves to dance around other players, but the whole team can dodge reasonably well and keep up with each other and this gives them options other teams don’t really have (at least until well advanced).

Team Playstyle

Looking at the players the Amazons have, one might possibly be forgiven for thinking that they are a passing team, they have throwers, catchers, all their players can dodge so are reasonably mobile, they are low ST and AV….. But this would be wrong, wrong, WRONG!

Amazons lack the agility and speed of the elven (and Skaven) teams who can easily score by flooding the opponents half with players, having a thrower chuck a long pass for a receiver to easily catch and then scamper into the endzone. Humans can also do this much better than the ‘Zons as they are so much faster. The MA of 6 and AG of 3 precludes the passing game as a high percentage play and as such shouldn’t be attempted unless absolutely necessary.

What the Amazons are good at is caging running style. They are not an out and out bash team by any stretch of the imagination, they lack the punch of a rostered Big Guy, have no players of above average strength and have weak armour, so they won’t win a straight-up fist fight with the tougher teams. What they do have is Dodge and this will keep them on their feet against players who don’t have tackle (most rookie teams). Dodge also allows them to disengage from their opponents to reset the cage somewhere else should things get too hot.*

The Players:

Linewomen: 0-16 6337, Dodge G/SAP 50k

Cheap and cheerful, but not to be underestimated. Dodge is a great starting skill as most other rookie players don’t come with block, so will be looking for a POW to get them down.

Skills

The first skill for most linewomen should be Wrestle. This means that they can only be Knocked Down on a POW (without the opo having Tackle), so should keep them on the pitch. Wrestle also allows them to more easily knock holes in an opponent’s defensive line (when they have block) so they can better run a cage through the hole.

Secondary skills should be Fend, Tackle, Dauntless or maybe Dirty Player depending on what the rest of the league is composed of (Fend to prevent hurt if in a bashy league, Dauntless to take down stronger players, Tackle to take down dodgers in an agile league and Dirty Player to put the hurt on the opposition- what could be “better” than a dirty girl wrestling you down, only to stand up and kick you in the balls next turn!)

An early skill-up should probably be Kick. Although ‘Zons lack the speed to really take advantage of a Blitz! result on the Kick-Off, with dodge, they can make life a lot more difficult for the other team. Kick is also very good against slow, bashy teams. The kicker should go for block rather than wrestle too- when defending, they won't be on the LOS and with wrestle can more easily be put on the ground on a blitz action, thus enabling the opo's catchers and the like to run past without dodging.

Double rolls should almost always be Guard. If this is the first skill-up, then go for Block rather than Wrestle later on. Secondary doubles, Side-Step. I would probably make an exception with Sneaky Git for a Dirty Player, as much for fluff as effectiveness. Mighty Blow would also be an option depending on how many other guarders you have and what other teams you would likely face.

Stat Increases

Take all. Linewomen are pretty much the only players on a ‘Zon team where I would consider AV > MA and only then if their main job is LOS duty, but on a double 5, I would take Guard over the MA or AV.

Linewomen, especially those on the LOS probably won’t last too long, so if they get to two skills, be happy.


Catchers: 0-2 6337, Dodge, Catch GA/SP 70k

Ok they have Catch, but aren’t any faster than Linewomen and there are only two of them, so this further precludes the passing game.

What they do have is access to agility skills and this is what makes them well worth buying.

Skills

The initial skills picked should be Block or Side-Step and then the other. Block to aid their survivability, Side-Step to make them annoying. There are few things more annoying in Bloodbowl than a Blodge side-stepper (we will see some below though).

After Block and Side-Step, Diving Tackle is fantastic. There are very few things more annoying in Bloodbowl than a Blodge, side-stepping diving tackler…

If (and it’s a big if) you get to four skills then you have a few choices. Tackle combines well with Diving Tackle, Frenzy combines well with Side-Step, Jump-Up adds much needed speed to the team, Fend helps survivability…I’m sure there are others you could chose.

The new rules for Diving Catch make it an intriguing possibility. It gives a much easier catch option when an accurate pass is thrown (a 2+, rerolled catch). This shouldn’t encourage one to play the throwing game, but it will help to skill up rookie MVP players when they get a completion and will of course help when you need to throw the ball.

Double skill picks should again be Guard. There are very few things more annoying in Bloodbowl than a Blodge, side-stepping guarder…

Stat Increases

As for Linewomen, take all. MA rather than AV. Depending on how the rest of the team had developed, I might possibly take Guard over the MA on a 5+5.

Throwers: 0-2 6337, Dodge, Pass GP/SA 70k

A pretty marginal player to begin with (you’re not playing the passing game now are you!?). But they are worth getting. Having the Pass skill at least gives you more options should things go wrong with the cage.

Skills

Your first Thrower should probably be developed as a ball carrying Thrower, so Block, Sure Hands (not absolutely necessary in my opinion, unless there are strip-ballers in the league) and Leader. Now I don’t think Sure Hands is necessary because an Amazon team should have a lot of rerolls, even more so if they develop an early Leader.

Later skills could be Accurate, Kick-Off Return, Fend, even Tackle if you use her as a safety. Doubles would probably be Sure Feet, or Guard if I felt my team needed more.

Despite all I have said about not playing the passing game, I do think it is worth developing a Thrower as a proper Thrower. So Accurate, Safe Throw, Strong Arm on doubles etc. There are a three main reasons for this. Firstly, sometimes you will have to score quickly, if you’ve only 2 turns to score, then you have to try to score in two turns! It is perfectly possible, but shouldn’t be your default play. Secondly, it will keep your options open and will make your opponent think twice about his defence and what you are going to do (more on this later). Thirdly, you might need to get the ball quickly into a cage from a deep kick.

Stat Increases

As for Linewomen, take all. MA rather than AV, possibly not ST4 on the dedicated Thrower (depending on how many skills she had). Probably Strong Arm over MA for the dedicated Thrower.


Blitzers: 0-4 6337, Dodge, Block GS/AP 90k

Saving the best ‘till last, they start with the magical Block and Dodge combination and have access to Strength skills. The work horses of your team and the reason why Amazons are so good at low TVs-few teams have the ability to take down a blodger, indeed only they and the best player in the game** start with this great combo. Maybe a bit overpriced given their mediocre stats, but you should always try to have all 4 of them.

Skills

Guard first, for at least the first three blitzer skill-ups. Then probably Stand Firm to shore up at least two corners of your cage and to stop you from being pushed around. Mighty Blow is also a good second skill as it aids SPP accumulation, but I’d generally want a couple of Stand Firm guarders first, as it is a very effective combination. If your team needs it, then some Tackle could be a choice after Guard.

You might want to make the 4th Blitzer into a killer, so go for Mighty Blow first, then Tackle/Piling On/Frenzy/Juggernaut as the league warrants.

If you get to a forth skill, then some Grab might be interesting, but assuming no doubles, a Blodge, Guard, Stand Firm, Mighty Blow, Tackle Blitzer would be sweet.

A great advantage of the Amazons is that they do not even have to think about using a double on Dodge as most other Blitzers would (admittedly all other Blitzers are faster than the linemen on their team, but hey ho). Therefore, that gives you the option of getting some tasty Agility skills, which combined with Strength access is a real boon. I go for Side-Step first (obviously not if you already have Stand Firm) because…..there are very few things more annoying in Bloodbowl than a Blodge, side-stepping guarder…

Diving Tackle could be an option, as could Jump Up, especially on a Piling-On Blitzer. You might even want to get Sure Feet if your team needed some more speed.

Stat Increases

Take all and be thankful. I don’t think a double 5 is worth getting a double skill for. You might want to get the AV rather than the MA on a well developed player for some added protection, especially if they are in the mix a lot.

Of course all you skill picks will be somewhat influenced by the league you play in and what team you are about to face next. If you’re up against some Woodies next with a Strip Ball Wardancer, give a Blitzer Sure Hands for ball protection. If you’ll up against a stunty team next, get some Tackle etc, etc, etc…

Starting Rosters

This is the 3rd great strength of the Amazon team (after universal dodge and their Blitzers). ‘Zons are cheap, with cheap rerolls.

The only thing you need to know about starting rosters is to start with 4 Blitzers. In fact, you can have all the positionals and 4 rerolls in a starting roster. But I think it is better to start with 12 players, you are AV 7 after all and it helps to keep to keep 11 on the pitch-once you become down on players, you are more likely to lose more players as you get ganged up on.

Four rerolls is probably also enough, it is far more than what most other teams will start with and you may as well fill yer boots whilst they are cheap as you will want them, especially later on when other teams have Tackle to negate your Dodge.

You might not want to start with an APO (but it is easy enough to do so), but he should be your first purchase.

Optimal Roster

All positionals and 14-15 players. Given their cheapness and squishiness, it is quite likely you’ll be the underdog and will want to save a space for a Star Player. 5-6 rerolls.

Tactics

Well, caging obviously. But where you differ from normal is that where you can’t go through, you can go round via the use of the dodge skill. It is also helpful here to advance a couple of players on a few squares on so that slower teams can’t get round these players to reposition themselves very easily in front of you. Then advance your cage quickly and hole up near the endzone to “manage the clock”.

It is also useful to have an advance player or two which you can threaten to throw/hand off to. This does two things. It either forces your opo to split his defence to deal with the threat, thus weakening the defence against the cage (the desired result), or if he doesn’t deal with it, you’ve got an easy way through to score, so should take it if it is the best option (this is why it is good to have the thrower in the cage). It is always better to have a score on the board than not, you just don’t want to score too quickly against the harder (and generally slower) as they will have more time to score against you.

The 2-1 grind is what you want to do against elves and teams with a good 2-turn score option. Against harder teams you might have to score in turn 5-6 as they have put so much pressure on your cage, you’ve been forced to score. Often this happens when your girls have been forced to do a half cage against the side-line and it is either score, or be turned over-it is obviously better to score.

Leaving the opposition with 4-5 turns to grind against you isn’t too bad. You are good defensively (especially at low TVs) as are difficult to knock down and with only 4-5 turns, they will be put out of their comfort zone, will have to speed up a bit and this may leave gaps which you can exploit, get the turnover and score.

Play only in short leagues….

There is a major failing with Amazons, their longevity. They are awesome at low TVs, but as other teams get more advanced, more reliable and more able to smack them around, their low AV will start to hurt, a lot. Up to about TV 150-175, they rock, but then their very average statline and lack of staying power means it will become a lot tougher winning.

To be able to compete at higher TVs, you will probably need a bit of luck in staying alive and a lot of luck in roiling stat increases. New skills like Fend should also help stave off casualties, so that should be of help in the CRP rules.

A rookie ‘Zon team should beat a rookie Chaos team, but a TV 200 Chaos team will generally smash an Amazon team apart. So whilst the haters complain about ‘Zons being too good, this is only really at the start, other teams catch up then overtake them in time. Nobody complains about a high TV Chaos of Nurgle being too good now do they, but they are awesome at high TVs?

Don’t play Dwarves….

This is another fallacy about Amazons in my opinion-that they always lose to Dwarves, paper, scissors, stone, blah, blah, blah. Yes a lot (but not all) of Dwarves start with Tackle, but they are sloooowww-here you MA of 6 is positively rapid! Use it! Pull them one way, then the next, then burst through and they won’t be able to catch you to stop you scoring. You should also have a few players with block and guard, so at least to begin with they won’t out-muscle you and on a bothdown result you will still be on your feet.

You will probably also have a lot of rerolls, so if Tackle denies a Dodge reroll, then you can still use a Team reroll. At least a draw should be attainable unless you lose too many players, but then that is the same with all games.

Obviously if you play Dwarves all the time, attrition will take its toll, but a few games a season should be manageable.

Summary

Amazon teams are like butterflies, they are beautiful but short lived.

Ignore the haters, unless they play stunties, then their opinion is worthless (and if they do play stunties, they are probably good enough sports to not worry about winning to much-they wouldn’t be playing stunties in the first place!).

Enjoy the ride whilst it lasts***

* Elf teams can play this way when more advanced, but they will lack skill and team rerolls to begin with for any failed dodges, so it can soon go wrong. Undead (Original and Necromantic) and Lizardmen can also do this, but it would mean their vital but fragile ghouls and skinks would get separated from the strength and staying power of the rest of the team and this could prove costly over the course of a game.

** The Woodelf Wardancer

*** And don't be afraid to drop in any pun, double entendre or dirty joke, they're an all female team, it's Bloodbowl, it should be fun!

[inkpwn]

Great playbook just what I needed. Though I have to disagree with the stunty bashing, your making the skinks sad

[txapo]

Great work! Just what i need to read as my next tournament is going to be with amazones!!

Agaisnt dwarves in defense i think is more sensible to start hiting and not advancing, so that he can only hit you once. Until the moment you cant hit him with two dices or the blitzers any longer, or you have used your turn's RR. then is time to start dodging. If you had hit first the longbeards may be you finish with all your team taklezone free!!!

I've tried this tactic twice on line and it did worked quite well.

[Smeborg]

Amazons can do fine against Dwarfs at low TV. I remember a progression tournament (CanCon) where an Amazon coach beat 3 different Dwarf teams on his way to a 3rd place finish. If the Dwarfs take all 6 positional players (they usually do), then there are only 5 Tackle players on the pitch. The Amazons run rings around the 6 players without Tackle, and are much faster.

[Carnis]

He deserves the hate . He avoids dorf teams & high tv teams, eg, plays amazons only when the odds are in his favour. Other than that I do kind of agree with his set. Although I wonder if it's always worth taking a 6+4 or a 5+5 over a skill/double with any amazon player.

Zons do fine against most dwarves early, it's chaos dwarves that are stronger than zons early due to their 2x +ST players in addition to having 1 more tackler than dwarves generally field.

[Heff]

Sure feet on the catchers to give you a bit of speed a bit more safely. (as the third development after block and ss) works nicely for me

[Porkus_Maximus]

Remove the paragraph at the start and you've got a solid playbook.

[Smurf]

Me thinks from looking at similarities.

Linewomen line is good.

Catchers, just take one on defence and offence. And stylise them. Ignore block, I know this is against the grain but concentrate the player on a ball grab and hand off or catch and score. Try and develop them only on defence.

Blitzers are just great - 4 Blodge! coupled with all teh Wrodge from the Line, leaving two players without block or wrestle. MB and Tackle ought to be the first then find Strip Ball/grab.

Throwers... always build for a passing game. Safe Throw, Accurate (etc) for offence and Kick, Nerves of Steel for defence (etc). Sure hands will help too.

I need one more blitzer to complete my line up

[SierraKiloBravo]

Good review.

[nazgob]

Good playbook, covers most of the bases i think.

Just one comment about playung bash teams. Zons dont need to be afraid of them as you tend to have a lot of guard and block. Bash coaches will tend to base up against a lot of your players, marking as many as possible. Don't dodge, just smack as many as possible.

[dines]

Me thinks from looking at similarities.

Linewomen line is good.

Catchers, just take one on defence and offence. And stylise them. Ignore block, I know this is against the grain but concentrate the player on a ball grab and hand off or catch and score. Try and develop them only on defence.

Blitzers are just great - 4 Blodge! coupled with all teh Wrodge from the Line, leaving two players without block or wrestle. MB and Tackle ought to be the first then find Strip Ball/grab.

Throwers... always build for a passing game. Safe Throw, Accurate (etc) for offence and Kick, Nerves of Steel for defence (etc). Sure hands will help too.

I need one more blitzer to complete my line up

Two comments:

I) I haven't played amazons myself, but it seems stupid to give strip ball to a block piece rather than a wrestle one.

II) I would prefer to develop the catchers as posted in the playbook rather than going for the offensive specialist, but one of each might have some potential.

[TuernRedvenom]

Me thinks from looking at similarities.

Linewomen line is good.

Catchers, just take one on defence and offence. And stylise them. Ignore block, I know this is against the grain but concentrate the player on a ball grab and hand off or catch and score. Try and develop them only on defence.

Blitzers are just great - 4 Blodge! coupled with all teh Wrodge from the Line, leaving two players without block or wrestle. MB and Tackle ought to be the first then find Strip Ball/grab.

Throwers... always build for a passing game. Safe Throw, Accurate (etc) for offence and Kick, Nerves of Steel for defence (etc). Sure hands will help too.

I need one more blitzer to complete my line up

Two comments:

I) I haven't played amazons myself, but it seems stupid to give strip ball to a block piece rather than a wrestle one.

II) I would prefer to develop the catchers as posted in the playbook rather than going for the offensive specialist, but one of each might have some potential.

III) with the whole team STR 3 and AV 7 and only the blitzers having STR access they need, need, need, absolutely need (really this is vital, if you don't do this you're going to get whipped) to take Guard asap. Maybe, just maybe build 1 as a killer with MB/PO first, but in this case the other 3 need to take Guard first.

[narg]

Great playbook!

[Heff]

So few comments, failed to realise the depth of the hate

[inkpwn]

So few comments, failed to realise the depth of the hate

There is hate but I think the lack of comments are from them being underplayed.
Unless I missed a bit does no one value dauntless on the zons? I think a dauntless wrestler can help get those wild animals on the floor with ease, where they belong.