Non-Symetrical Defensive Formations

[Der_Doodle]

Hi everyone,
from time to time I see here in various threads non symetrical defensive Formations (and I am not speaking about Matts famous Half-Zig Formation).
Now my big question is:

"why should I use a non symetrical formation?"
For me so far they look usually just like giving my opponent the chance to build his cage "deep" inside my own half of the pitch without even needed to blitz something

"wich teams can use such a formation?"

"wich benefits do I usually get from this kind of setup?"

"do i need any special skills or stats to pull it off?"


As an example for what i mean

Code: Select all

- - - - | - - - - x x x | - - - -
- - - - | - - - - - - - | - - - -
- - - - | x - - x - - x | - x - -
- - - - | - - - x - - x | - - x -
- - - - | x - - - - - - | - - - -

for example this defense in the vampire thread.

[nazgob]

I use it reasonably regularly with humans, but would also consider it with wood elves, skaven and slann. The only skills you need are kick and a high average movement. I'd use it against khemri, dwarves, amazons, norse and vampires without question, but would have to consider it more carefully against undead, necros, chaos dwarves and orcs. I wouldn't tend to use it against elves or humans or skaven, or against the stunties. Used correctly, it stretches the field and lets you use your superior movement to maximum advantage. But, it is risky, and can give your opponent an easy opening to form a cage in your half of the pitch.

Here's an example of an off centre set up I like to use.

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- - - - | - - - - 1 1 1 | - - - -
- - 2 - | - 2 - - 1 - - | - 2 - -
- 3 - - | 3 - - - - 2 - | - - 3 -
- - - - | - - - - - - - | - - - -
- - - - | - - - - - - - | - - - -

Players labelled '1' are my hitters. Guard and mighty blow peices, blocking linemen and the ogre. Those labelled '2' are my runners. Typically (human) blitzers, with the heavy hitters focussed on the right. The '3's are my catchers (and yes, three human catchers are useful for this play, although blitzers with dodge work nicely too).

**note: this play is aggressive. there is no room for double guessing the kick off result (ignore the possibility of quick snap)**

**note: this post assumes that the opponent will run down your left hand side, away from your bashier players. the possibility that they won't is dealt with at the end**

When faced with an off centre defence, most coaches get confused. They're not used to it, which puts you in control. By putting all of your heaviest hitters on the right, you engourage your opponent to go down your left, through the easier path. This 'easier path' is still quite hard to go down though, as the doubled defence means that they will struggle to attack convincingly. They can either:
- blitz the left most No. 3 and push up that wing (limiting their maneouverability)
- blitz the No. 1 or No. 2 in the centre of the pitch, second row (through which they can form a nice cage ready to be surrounded by your players)
- or simply play conservatively and opt for the grind

**note: options one and two are often the most favourable, as those holes are open to be exploited. the catcher on the left is a particularly tempting target. that said, most experienced coaches would go for option 3**

At this point, you're probably concerned. The defence is built with holes in it to entice your opponent forwards. But the thing is, the cage is useless without the ball. And the ball is going to be deep. And I mean really deep. I tend to kick here (E is the endzone):

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E E E E | E E E E E E E | E E E E
- - - - | - - - - - - - | - - - -
- - - - | - - - - - - - | - b - - 
- - - - | - - - - - - - | c - - -

I put the ball on b (for ball) - nice and aggressive, but unless you are unlucky and it scatters 3 in the wrong direction (10.42%), or it scatters to the sidelines and then bounces out (roughly 13.02%), the ball will stay on the pitch 75% of the time. For safety, you can opt to put it on the c (for coward), where it should stay on around 93.5% of the time.

The opposing coach will now be torn between making a hole to advance through and the need to rescue the ball. Trying to do both will stretch his team thin. Typically at the end of his first turn, the attacker will have made some effort at hitting your lines, and will have two or three players back to retrieve/protect the ball. On your turn, simply get as many players as possible into the back field. Cover the pass lanes so you get intercepts and cover the ground with as many tackle zones as possible to prevent a handoff. Mark up his cage (or the players that will form his cage), and at the start of his turn 2, the ball carrier should be isolated from your opponent's most powerful players (who will be involved in the main drive) and staring at an oncoming blitz. Keep the pressure on and wait for a mistake, and when it comes, steal the ball for a quick touchdown.

**note: this play works really well when your opponent has 3 or 4 turns to score and needs to move the ball quickly**

Variations:

-The on side kick: Kick short rather than long, and hope for your opponent to mess up.

Problems:

- "This never works! Elves keep picking up the ball and passing their way out of trouble." Don't try this against elves. They can pass over anything, at any range, and then laugh as they moonwalk to victory. Humans and skaven have the ability to run around your blockades too. Also, don't be surprised if orcs pull off the pass as well - an orc thrower with accurate or kick off return will ruin this play, so tread carefully.

- "My opponent set up his peices on the wrong side. how am I supposed to kick to the back right hand corner now?" Simply switch sides - kick long, and let those lovely catchers and blitzers on the left race to your rescue.


The major advantage of the asymmetrical set up is the options it gives you for pressurising your opponent. Stretch the field and you force more dice rolls simply to move the ball, particularly when he needs to push for a quick score.

[mattgslater]

Asymmetric lines are best in the hands of the lighter team in the contest, against an opponent without any air game. This actually speaks against spending too much time on asymmetric lines, as the 8-turn grind is less dependent on breaking in than in forming up in the right place and not making any terrible mistakes. Still, encouraging the OL to set up on one side of the pitch can pigeonhole the cage a bit, forcing it to run one way, and can maximize the odds of capitalizing on a mistake. Since the teams that would use asymmetric lines tend to also take a kicker, this helps further maximize those odds. Also, on a short clock an asymmetric defense can be a real killer, provided you don't let a downfield cage form on the uncovered side. Midfield cage games don't work nearly as well against an asymmetric front.

I sometimes like a shallow kick against teams with speed but not ball skills, like Lizardmen or Necromantic, or teams that are down men. Against the slower grinders, I still kick deep. Asymmetric lines are a great way to take advantage of superior numbers, and also to account for just one missing player.

While I think the asymmetric formation in the original post is about the best it gets without Stand Firm or Side Step to broaden the front, I think you need a few SS or SF players to pull off the best offset fronts. Leaving the far WZ wide open makes you susceptible to downfield formations. If the offense can use just four bodies to drive your DL back and blitz the midfielder/flanker at L3-2, they can hold the LOS, build a downfield cage and maintain a screen to protect the carrier, all with just 11 men. Also, teams with short passing games, like Orcs and Amazons, are likely to eat your lunch.

You don't want to open up deep action on the far side of the field against a bash team, because it invites partitioning and makes it harder to get a front on the cage: if the cage forms only 9 squares from the endzone and you can't lock a proper front onto it on the first turn, you have to stop the delivery; you can't play the one-square game, or he'll be sitting on the end zone before you get your men into position. You're also subject to partitioning if you get caught in a "pincers" maneuver, with big scaries on your left, positioning skills in front, and a standard one-square cage behind the LOS on your right. There are a lot of things that can go wrong if you let a couple of heavy guys turn the corner on you.

One thing you need to run an asymmetric backfield is a DL that either can justify its value by getting mobbed up and neutralized (Zombies) or is mobile enough to reposition after getting knocked into the wide zone (Elves), or both (Amazons). Positioning skills on the line help too: if your left end (R1-0) has Side Step, he can let himself get pushed into centerfield. Against an opponent that can't dodge, SS on the right end or nose lets him get pushed/knocked into that one spot that prevents free movement.

[nazgob]

That seems to make a lot of sense matt, but what's a DL?

[mattgslater]

Oops. Defensive line.

[Greyhound]

I'm an orc with good AG all around the team (AG4 on half the players) and playing against a chaos player heavily loaded with Claw. I don't have kick... based on these assumptions should I try the asymmetrical defence?

[mattgslater]

Nah, I'd hold my ground up the gut. I'll look at your post before I post a defense. My suspicion is you may want to play a Zig, but pull it inside a bit, so he can't try to partition you up the middle. The problem is that your DL is good, but isn't cheap or mobile. So you don't want it taken out of the play.

I wouldn't get too clever: Orcs vs. Chaos doesn't really lead to big things coming off the defensive setup for either side. Both teams have a credible QP or SP game and like to cage, neither team gets deep pressure or is subject to partitioning. Use your Stand Firm guys to keep bodies off your expensive players, foul the Claw guys if you get them down, mark ST3 Claws with BOBs and ST4+ Claws with space.

[nazgob]

I would second that. A good rule of thumb is that if your average speed isn't higher than their average speed, don't try it. My reasoning is the same as Matt's, but where he looks at your defensive line being tied down, I tend to focus on where I can pin the ball. With humans you can dump the ball deep and pressurise. With orcs, your back field just isn't fast enough.

That said, if you had kick, I might be more tempted, as you could weight your Ag4 players on the weaker side and put the ball on the opposite. When he drives down the weak side, your Ag4 can dodge away. But the thing is, at move 5 and 6, they won't be getting far enough to be effective.

[mattgslater]

There is something to be said for kicking shallow with Orcs. But I might not use that strategy on another heavy team.

[Uldreg]

Dismal start for my first major asymetrical defensive outting. Might not have been a good idea. I used an asym defence in a Necro (me) vs Liz team that was 300tv higher than mine. I came back and actually led 2-1 after a disasterous first half, but had to go with a half zig after my second TD. But the aSym defense i used first was blasted apart. I kicked shallow, and i think deep might have been the better idea. He put his Krox on my isolated winger (fleshy) and i was unable to free the Fleshy. I think i messed up in my first turn, by not attacking the weakside, i probably could have manufactured a surf attempt on the Krox in my second turn if i had planned accordingly. I think would have been able to hold the strongside, even while attacking the weakside. It comes donw to my inexpreience with asym formations and how to play them. Also Necro vs Liz might not have been an ideal matchup for my first asym try.

[nazgob]

Bad luck there. Roughly what sort of set up did you use? One of your problems may have been to put the fleshy on the wing. THe ghouls may have been a better choice, as they can reposition quickly - the golems are too easy to pin down, even though their stand firm is useful.

You may also find that against lizards, a deep kick could isolate the skinks from the saurus. Although they could stunty their way through your screening players.

[Krulfang]

With my Orcs I have kicked shallow and used a heavy flank move to try for an offsides kick. Risky, but when it does work it is a very nasty play to counter. I only do it with a higher TV team though, as I find unskilled Orcs have a lot of trouble pulling it off! Once the blitzers have some levels it's worth the risk most times. For the unfortunate instances where it becomes a touchback, I'll usually have to rely a bit more on my safeties while the strong flank commits itself to damage control.

[nazgob]

My problem with the onside kick is that more often than not, your opponent can simply grab the ball and handoff laterally, putting it deep in a pack of his players. Unless it actually lands on the LOS, in many tackle zones, or you get a blitz, you simply won't be able to prevent the pick up reliably.

Its why I tend to kick as deep as possible rather than go short.

[Krulfang]

Good point. I would certainly never try it against a Skaven/Elf team, and it generally is done only when I have a numerical advantage, so this helps to mitigate the chances of a swift hand-off zip around the other side. Also, I would never leave the other side empty - just weight the strong side with heftier pieces (like a S4 blitzer I had, or move one of my safeties to that side, or shift my troll from the center more towards the side). Sure I still can't prevent the pickup, but usually I can then tie up the guy who picked up the ball.

[mattgslater]

Actually, I like shallow kicks (with a symmetrical front) against agility teams. No, it probably doesn't matter, but if you kick deep, you have zero chance to mark/blitz the speedy carrier. If you kick shallow, you're still hoping for a failed PU, a fumbled QP/Catch, or a mistake, but if you get it you probably score.