Am I the only person who doesn't like PRO?

Snew · Post by **Snew** » Fri Jan 31, 2003 2:50 am

I just don't see the benefit of it. On a BG, sure, it's your only chance. On a regular player, though, does anyone ever use it instead of a re-roll. Is it for when all the re-rolls are gone? Do yo umove the "Pro" last? A 50% chance of being able to re-roll something doesn't sound like good odds to me.

Help me out here. Sell me on this. It seems like I'm missing something.

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Fri Jan 31, 2003 3:36 am

Ive got it on one choas dwarf, not a lot of choices with 3 normal rolls for these guys. I use it sometimes if I roll skull pushback or double pushback and other such rolls. I don't think this warrents a reroll but the odds of me getting double skull aren't that high compared to the chance i might get a pow or pushback/pow.

Also like you said if i leave him to last i can attempt a dodge with a small safety net or pro if i have used a reroll already. Though i don't do this often.

High & Mighty · Post by **High & Mighty** » Fri Jan 31, 2003 4:07 am

Yes that's a pro guy who's helpful at doing anything at the end of a turn or game when you don't have a reroll.

But in addition to that, Pro increases the chance that you will get a knockdown so you're increasing the holes you can put in the opponent's line. Compare that with MB that increases the chance you will break armor but gives no benefit in helping put the guy on the ground NOW!

In fact:

Code: Select all

Prob of knockdowns (a/g no block or dodge player)
                 No pro Pro MB
You have no block 33  44  33
You have Block    50  63  50

So the basic player with pro gets 33% more knockdowns than the player with nothing or MB, and the player with block and pro get 25% more knockdowns (while block increases your knockdowns by 50% over no block).

But assume you get the knockdown, MB ensures that you injure more often.

Code: Select all

Prob of breaking armor after knockdown        
       No pro   Pro MB
a/g AV7   42  42  58
a/g AV8   28  28  42
a/g AV9   17  17  28

So the gist is that pro ensures more chances at breaking armor while MB ensures a better chance at breaking armor. So which helps more?

Code: Select all

Prob of knockdown AND breaking armor

You have no Block          
    No pro  Pro  MB Pro+MB      
AV7 14  19  19  26
AV8   9   12  14  19
AV9   6   7   9   12

You have Block            
    No pro  Pro  MB Pro+MB      
AV7 21  26  29  36
AV8   14  17  21  26
AV9   8   10  14  17

So other than in the case of you having no block and hitting AV7 players, mighty blow always ensures more broken armor than pro in the game. (And pro is equally as effective against all AV, while MB is more useful the higher the AV you face.)

But without mutations, pro becomes the only universal way (tackle helps when hitting a dodge player only) to increase your casualty rate outside of MB (and if you don't have ST access, the only way).

The real question, though is whether the strategic value of having 25-33% more knockdowns each turn is worth more to you than more casualties by the end of the game. If the coach has reserves, those casualties just ensure the bench comes into play. While pro ensures whoever is on the field spends more time on their butt, leaving more open space for you to run through.

D'Arquebus · Post by **D'Arquebus** » Fri Jan 31, 2003 5:16 am

I agree with Grumbledook, in that you can easily give it to a hitter with block and Str4 or more. This allows you to reroll unsatisfactory hits without burning a reroll and a small chance of completely bollocksing it up.
High & Mighty also gives you an idea, do you want long term casualities or short term strategic knock downs.

It is also possible to give it to unskilled people on teams which don't possess alot of position players. Beastmen on chaos and hobgoblins on chaos dwarf spring to mind. As these players cannot get agility or passing skills you get an all-rounder with the ability to move the ball with some success and without burning a reroll when the chips are down.

I did try it once on my leaping Dark Elf blitzer but felt that he always ended up needing the sure thing of the Reroll, rather then a failed 4+ for pro, because he was doing something important. In my experience pro is better for designated hitters or for fill-ins on teams with few position players.

Dangerous Dave · Post by **Dangerous Dave** » Fri Jan 31, 2003 10:04 am

I believe Pro is a very useful skill. For example if you need to pull off a series of rolls, you can gamble to some degree and use Pro to reroll a block where you need a Pow rather than a push. This may allow you to save the reroll for later. If Pro fails, you can reroll the Pro roll. Risky yes but it gives you another option.

On a blitzer, Pro is very useful. Use it to reroll blocks, use it to catch hand offs, gfis, dodges etc. Normally a blitzer will not have catch, sure feet etc. Of course you will use a reroll first - but there are many times when you have no rerolls left - then Pro comes into its own.

For other positions, catcher, thrower etc Pro is less useful since they will normally have skills to cover failure.

In the MBBL, my Mummy development is:-

Piling On, Block, Mighty Blow and Pro - although I may add Tackle into the mix too.

Dave

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Fri Jan 31, 2003 11:01 am

Pro has 2 really big uses

Blocking - have a look at this thread and you can see that Pro, although not as good as Block actually makes blocking significantly more effective at both getting knockdowns and saving you from falling over.

Out of turn - you can use pro in your opponents turn for interceptions and catches. So AG4 Pass Blockers with no access to agility skills might consider it a worthwhile option

It isn't a team reroll. This helps as you can still use or have used a team reroll that turn. Especially when you don't have too many to start with.

All that said Pro is normally a 3rd skill or later. Longbeards are one of the classic usages of Pro. It would be the 3rd skill after Guard & MB.

ZanzerTem · Post by **ZanzerTem** » Fri Jan 31, 2003 5:27 pm

Pro is a great skill! On top of what was already listed, you can use multiple Pro's during your turn, including your team reroll.

Blood

Snew · Post by **Snew** » Fri Jan 31, 2003 6:23 pm

I can see the advantage of using Pro on blocks. That's good. I never thought of that. Thanks H&M. I don't really follow why you added MB in there. Pro won't let you re-roll Armor so I didn't understand why that was mentioned.

I dont ever see any reason to use it on catches or anything else over a re roll unless it's the end of the turn and it really doesn't matter what happens to that guy or whatever. I do realize that it's better than nothing when you're out of re-rolls for that turn or half. I just don't see any reason to use it over a re-roll. Pro has a 50% chance of failing and then, you can only re roll the Pro roll. That sucks in my book.

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Fri Jan 31, 2003 6:46 pm

My general team philosopy is to start with a lot of rerolls and give players skills that let them do things they would not ordinarily be able to do. For instance, I'd give Guard over pro to a 4 strength guy with Block, because it helps the people around him more. Pro is a decent second tier general skill, but Tackle, Strip Ball, Sure Hands, Kick and a host of others take precedence in my pecking order.

High & Mighty · Post by **High & Mighty** » Fri Jan 31, 2003 6:57 pm

snotsngrots wrote:I don't really follow why you added MB in there. Pro won't let you re-roll Armor so I didn't understand why that was mentioned.

That was the debate that arose in my own league, ie should a player take MB or Pro. And in the game of attrition, those are the only two skills with a direct measurable effect on your blocking. All the others (guard, tackle, etc) are subjective.

IMO, the only real reason to take pro is the blocking benefit. Everything else is just nice to have. You may get catch to help your receiver on a pass, but it is nice to be able to reroll a catch for a bouncing ball or an interception too. That's just not always why you got the skill.

Plus a team like Chaos or especially my Chaos Pact team in the MBBL just aren't going to afford a 140k or 180k team reroll any time soon so the option of the pro reroll is especially valuable to me there.

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Fri Jan 31, 2003 7:20 pm

H&M - I think you left out Piling On. It has a very direct effect on the game of attrition.

High & Mighty · Post by **High & Mighty** » Fri Jan 31, 2003 7:45 pm

Skummy wrote:H&M - I think you left out Piling On. It has a very direct effect on the game of attrition.

Very true. Sorry. But it does come with the technicality of figuring out how many less blocks you throw from being on the ground yourself.

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Fri Jan 31, 2003 7:58 pm

Are fewer quality hits better than a larger number of quantity hits? I suppose it depends on how hot your dice are.

Most people would probably agree that it is harder to get a man advantage with the LRB rules. With a strength team, I'll make the most of those hits and save the rerolls for ball handling.

wesleytj · Post by **wesleytj** » Fri Jan 31, 2003 8:58 pm

I use it less than I used to. I used to give it to anybody that hit a lot and pro roll armor or injury that didn't break. If it failed, nothing lost.

Other than that, as previously mentioned, it's great for when you're out of rerolls, or for when you REALLY need the reroll for something crazy later, or whatever. It's also a good skill for a guy who can't decide between one of several "reroll" skills. For example, a guy who wants catch, sure hands, and sure feet but doesn't want to use 3 skills on it could take pro and make himself SOMEWHAT better at each thing. Kinda a "jack of all trades, master of none" tradeoff.

Munkey · Post by **Munkey** » Sat Feb 01, 2003 6:01 pm

Pro is always a skill that i'll consider for my players but i always end up taking something else instead.

It seems to me that it's a useful skill to have in many situations on the pitch but it's hard to plan for in your gameplan.