Diving Tackle and Dodge

[ZanzerTem]

Once you claim that you are using a skill, and it effects a roll, you cant take it back.

Blood

[Bevan]

Once you claim that you are using a skill, and it effects a roll, you cant take it back.

Blood

Yes, but in my example Diving Tackle was going to have no effect on the roll because Break tackle was used. So Diving Tackle became irrelevant.

The rules state that if both coaches want to use a skill affecting a dice roll then the moving player declares the use of his skill first. This implies that the non-moving player could change his mind about using his skill after the moving player's skill was declared.

Another example would be the moving player declaring the use of Stand Firm and the non-moving coach decides its not worth having a player go down without getting the opponent over.

[GalakStarscraper]

I'll put this one of the clarification list for next year Bevan.

But I'd rule in the Ogre BT vs Dt player that the if the Ogre made the dodge roll 4. The opponent gets a choice delcare the use of DT to force the use of BT or don't.

Once the opponent declares that they are using DT to force the use of BT ... there's no way as a commish I would allow the DT player to say okay then I won't use DT. Same for the Stand Firm example.

I don't believe takebacks should be allowed ... in my opinion it all stacks ie ...

IE
Ogre rolls 4.
Ogre must go first and declares the use of no skills
DT players delcares use of DT.
Ogre player responds by declaring use of BT.

I don't think you should be able to rescind part of the chain.

However, two points get brought up here that I full agree need official clarification:
1) Could the DT player take back the use of DT ... if he does then can the Ogre take back the use of BT?
2) Can the Ogre respond to the declaring of DT with the use of BT or did he have to announce the uses of the skill before the DT player announced?

I'll definitely add it to the list.

Galak

[Joaquim]

Surely they do!!...

But in this case there isn't any "going back in time" - since the Ogre didn't move since DT declaration... so... my solution is:
Or both skills are used or none, the player with DT picks...

So if DT "takes it back" so can the Ogre with BT... and no, they should spent the rest of the night in this!!!!

[Munkey]

I'd always assumed that break tackle had to be declared before making the roll. I just thought that a player breaking a tackle approaches the move in a different way, by barging through the other player, than an opponent who is attempting to use his natural agility to avoid the opponent.

I know this is applying 'reality' to a game rule, something i'm not necessarily in favor of but this is the way i'd always though of it.

I've never actually had a player with BT though so i'm not sure it's correct.

[wesleytj]

I'd always assumed that break tackle had to be declared before making the roll. I just thought that a player breaking a tackle approaches the move in a different way, by barging through the other player, than an opponent who is attempting to use his natural agility to avoid the opponent.

No that's not correct...you may roll and then see if you need to use the skill. In practice is doesn't matter that often, most of the guys who take it don't do too many dodges in a turn anyway, but that is how it works.

[Bevan]

However, two points get brought up here that I full agree need official clarification:
1) Could the DT player take back the use of DT ... if he does then can the Ogre take back the use of BT?
2) Can the Ogre respond to the declaring of DT with the use of BT or did he have to announce the uses of the skill before the DT player announced?

I'll definitely add it to the list.

Galak

I fully agree that declaring the use of a skill then taking it back should not be allowed. The anomaly arises because of the rule on page 15 (2nd last paragraph) "If both coaches want to use a skill to affect the same action or move, then the coach whose team turn is taking place must use his skill first."

If the moving team uses their skill successfully it is is not clear that the coach of the non-moving team must still use the relevant skill even though it now has no effect.

The wording also implies that if the moving player has dodge and the non-moving player has break tackle, then these are both skills affecting the same action so the dodge skill must be used first, but that doesn't make sense if the dodge succeeds.

I suggest just removing the sentence I quoted above and rule that if a skill is declared by either player (in any order) then it gets used.

[GalakStarscraper]

I agree with you Bevan on the declaration method.

Ogre do you declare BT: Nope I made the roll without it.
Skink do you declare DT: Yes, I want the Ogre to not have BT for his next Dodge roll this turn to get into my cage.
Ogre do you now declare BT: uuuuhhhh, yup ... don't wanna fall down.

Thank you for playing ... continue on.

Makes sense to me. Use a declare and response wording with the currently moving coach going first. If 10 year olds can understand this for Magic the Gathering, I think BB can survive.

(It really is rare anyway).

Galak

[Darkson]

Or you could say before rolling dice-

"The Guy you're dodging away from has DT"

Then the dodging coach can work out if he's failed or not, can use Dodge, BT or re-roll before the oppo uses DT.

That keeps the order as in the rulebook. Of course I'd only use this against "mature" players, as otherwise people could say "You've used your re-roll, but I won't DT"


How's the 2003 clarification list coming Galak, bigger than 2002's yet

[Malthor]

Semantically, there is a difference between 'declaring' and 'using' skills.

Thus I think there is no problem with the clause about 'moving player must use skills first' and the Ogre declaring he will Break Tackle after the non moving player declares he will use Diving Tackle.

Declare when you like, but the effects are applied (or the skill 'used') in the order of moving player first, then non moving player.

M

[Grumbledook]

Personally I would use the diving tackle to force the use of break tackle or a reroll, unless the situation meant I would rather have my player standing then i would use it anyway.

In the ogres case if he wants to dodge away using break tackle I would say the diving tackle guy would have to go prone to force this. I think its a fair trade off to make them use break tackle if they are going to require it to break into a cage or something later.

[xxxdvlman]

It's clear that DT can be used after the roll, but can it be used after a reroll? If my opponent fails to dodge away do I have to decide to use DT now in case he rerolls or can I wait till after he rerolls the dodge then decide to use DT?

[GalakStarscraper]

It's clear that DT can be used after the roll, but can it be used after a reroll? If my opponent fails to dodge away do I have to decide to use DT now in case he rerolls or can I wait till after he rerolls the dodge then decide to use DT?

You can wait until after the 2nd roll is made.

See the chart eariler in this thread which showed that that is the case.

The backing for this. If I roll 2 Block dice against you and roll 2 Skulls, I don't need to declare the use of Block on the first set of rolls, for it to be used on the reroll of the block.

Galak

[Ghost of Pariah]

I just don't want a "No Takebacks!" rule in the book! That's silly! What's next? A "Touch Blue Make It True" section?


grow up. lol

[xxxdvlman]

Hey Galak, a friend sent me this link from Chet and it seems to contradict what you have said. Now I'm really confused . Can the use of DT be decided after a reroll?

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bbowl/message/2187